Video Game Franchise Codifiers

Aesthetics are the "elements" spoken of in the trope description, since (by nature) non-interactive media is just aesthetics — as opposed to video games, which have both aesthetics and mechanics.

Tone is a part of aesthetics.

Edited by WarriorsGate on May 19th 2023 at 10:42:13 AM

• Aesthetics are the "elements" spoken of in the trope description
• since (by nature) non-interactive media is just aesthetics

Well, that means it did count.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on May 19th 2023 at 11:47:40 AM

That... is not at all what "aesthetic" is. An aesthetic is specifically about art, or more specifically, "a set of principles underlying and guiding the work of a particular artist or artistic movement" according to Oxford. A work's tone is not part of an artistic movement. Aesthetic is things like art style, lightning, cinematography and character/prop design.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of this debate. This major unilateral action shouldn't have been done, and if it had to there should have been prior endorsement, which isn't the case here since Warriors Gate has a wrong impression of the trope's scope, and justifying a mass deletion they stated were going to do regardless is nothing but a tone-deaf attitude.

EDIT: Ninja'd en masse.

Edited by MyFinalEdits on May 19th 2023 at 1:54:20 PM

It did not count, because all those films codified their franchises while they were still new, while Resident Evil 4 tried to reinvigorate the series after eight years and a popular consensus it had gone stale.

You said that tone is not part of a work's aesthetics, then you listed a bunch of things that constitute a work's tone (more accurately its mise en scene, but same thing).

x3 ...not to take a side on whether unilateral deletion was right, but narrative tone is unquestionably part of aesthetics. You can't define Gothic Horror or Space Opera without reference to the atmosphere they mean to convey. Sometimes that's the only thing that identifies the genre.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on May 19th 2023 at 6:57:52 PM

No? What I'm talking about has everything to do with what a work looks and presents like, while tone comes more from things like dialogue, score, plot, character interactions, and more. Of course, art style CAN impact tone, but they are not the same thing.

And those are genres, not aesthetics. "Goth" is an aesthetic but it doesn't inherently convey a specific tone, especially since it has multiple meanings. And yes, tone is important to both of those genres... but that doesn't mean those things aren't still just genres at the end of the day, and not entire artistic styles or movements.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 19th 2023 at 1:59:05 PM

Tropes Are Flexible, remember?

All of those are part of aesthetics. How else can we talk about "minimalism in dialogue" or Mamet Speak if they're not considered aesthetics — in a very broad sense of the term?

Tropes Are Flexible, you say, as you also flat out refuse to acknowledge the fact that Franchise Codifier might just be broader than you think it is?

Anyway, "Aesthetic" isn't a trope so IDK where you're going with that argument. I'm debating on a semantic level about a dictionary definition of a word. Genres are also not tropes either, they're a collection of tropes; they're flexible insofar as their exact definitions may not always be easy to pinpoint, but that doesn't mean my dictionary definition is suddenly wrong.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 19th 2023 at 2:04:48 PM

If Tropes Are Flexible then videogame mechanics are part of broad "aesthetics" as well.

I mean, you mention that Tropes Are Flexible and yet you questioned the Smash examples because you claim it's not a franchise (it is), or the Mario spinoffs because you think the original Super Mario Bros. somehow was the direct codifier of those.

This is the last time I'll post in the thread unless we exit this endless circle of counter-arguing.

Edited by MyFinalEdits on May 19th 2023 at 2:07:09 PM

The franchise doesn't need to be new to have a codifier; it just needs to not be the first or the last. In fact, the trope even mentions that the change may anger fans of the franchise, meaning that the codifier could appear at any time.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on May 19th 2023 at 12:13:22 PM

You're drawing a distinction I don't understand. "Goth" is an aesthetic. "Art deco" is an aesthetic. "Absurdism" is an aesthetic. "Cyberpunk" is an aesthetic. What do you want to call "the intended effect on the audience of the artistic philosophy which chose to arrange these elements this way" if not "tone"?

Yes.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on May 19th 2023 at 7:15:34 PM

This whole debate is sort of off topic, so I don't want to draw it out too much, but to me, tone is much broader and is just about how the work feels. That often includes the aesthetic, but they are not one in the same. Some horror works have a cutesy aesthetic, for example, which means the imagery is clashing with the actual tone, and that makes sense because to me, aesthetic is surface level — it's how things look and are presented up front, not necessarily how I feel about it. Sometimes the aesthetic and the tone match, other times they clash, and sometimes a work doesn't have a strong aesthetic at all even while still evoking a specific tone.

I fully admit we may just be working off two wildly different definitions here, but in my mind, I've never seen aesthetic as anything other than visual design. I simply can't reconcile it in my head as being more than that — I've never seen it used for anything else until now.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 19th 2023 at 2:19:32 PM

I've said, like, three times that "aesthetics" and "mechanics" should be considered as a balanced whole, whereas the entries currently lean entirely towards gameplay mechanics and put no thought into the aesthetics. I'm using "aesthetics" to mean anything which isn't "mechanics", which differentiates the video game category from the others.

Please explain how that's different from Retool, then.

Edited by WarriorsGate on May 19th 2023 at 11:21:30 AM

But if the trope is truly flexible, then why does it have to include aesthetic? Why is it only flexible enough to include the compromise, but can't go further?

Which trope?

...Franchise Codifier. The only trope we've been discussing (since, again, the other concepts brought up are not actually tropes)

Edited by WarJay77 on May 19th 2023 at 2:26:09 PM

Well, as already stated, there can only be one Franchise Codifier, but a franchise can have many ReTools. But nowhere does it say that they are mutually exclusive.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on May 19th 2023 at 12:43:23 PM

"Aesthetics" already encompasses everything about a non-interactive medium. Aliens turned the Alien franchise from a slow-burn horror film into a space marine shootfest, and this change is communicated through its aesthetics (cheesy one-liners, stark cinematography, rapid editing, etc.). The term "aesthetics" is already so broad that nothing else is required for non-interactive media.

Video games are games, however. They have both mechanics (as in, like a board game) and aesthetics. We use the aesthetics in order to categorize them into their franchise. You can take the engine for Half-Life and swap Gordon Freeman out for Jordan Scotman, and suddenly it's not part of the Half-Life franchise anymore, even though it has the same mechanics. The aesthetics are what tie entries together into "a franchise".

You are 100% correct that they are not mutually exclusive. However, the franchise was hugely successful and influential since its first installment, so it had been codified for eight years by the time RE 4 came out. And, as the trope description says, the first entry cannot be listed as the codifier (since that's so common it's not noteworthy).

Edited by WarriorsGate on May 20th 2023 at 12:00:16 PM

The codifier can't be the first game of the franchise.

Look, I've already explained to death why I don't think those things qualify as "aesthetic", but, whatever. We'll sidestep the ongoing semantics argument and I'll try to focus on what you're actually saying.

Where in the description does it say that these elements MUST only apply to these things? Or at least, where it says that they are required for the trope to be valid?

"Elements" is such a broad word that any definition other than "the recurring aspects of a work" is too narrow.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 20th 2023 at 3:02:55 PM

Wait a second; it had already been codified? By whom? The sequel, the third, Code: Veronica? I recommend adding this mysterious codifier then.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on May 20th 2023 at 1:19:48 PM

I'm of the opinion that as an inherently interactive form of media, we should be giving more emphasis to game mechanics when discussing how game franchises work. Adding to that, I think using 'franchise' to restrict the trope to the extent that "Super Mario Bros. came first, therefore no other future Mario game can be a codifier" makes the trope less useful overall. It should be flexible enough that we allow sub-series/spin offs within a franchise to have their own entries under Franchise Codifier.

With this is mind, I agree that some series', like Pokémon, already had a codifier from the beginning so Pokémon Gold and Silver Versions are more just tweaks/improvements to the existing formula. I can't say the same for Mario because I don't really anticipate the Mario Kart developers looking at Super Mario Bros. as a template to pull mechanics from.

I'm not really looked to get mired in this thread as it's already a mess as is, just throwing my opinion out there.

Edited by YourIdeas on May 20th 2023 at 3:51:35 AM