The Dreaded's Scope and Definition Issues

Bumping this thread since the trope will be taken to the TRS Queue after the wick check for The Dreaded is finished (7 wicks remaining).

Terror Hero is a hero who uses exploits fear and terror when dealing with villains. The concept is different from The Dreaded since the Terror Hero isn't necessarily defined by their reputation.

Thank you for your work. I kept putting it off because the large number made me unmotivated to finish it off.

I'll do the remaining wicks, but I'm not sure what are the best solutions for it.

No problem.

Limiting to anti-hero / villain examples would be nice, but I'm not sure about the "applies to group or otherwise more than one character" one.

Is there an existing trope for "the boisterousness of a room quickly turns into silence as soon as a character enters said room"?

Wouldn't that basically mean the character is dreaded? Or maybe have a powerful/commanding presence in general, and not necessarily feared?

Anyway, here are the initial solutions suggested by me:

• Possible solutions (tentative):
  • Expand to fit misuse:
    • Expand the trope to ANY SINGLE character who's the most feared in the story, regardless of morality/role (1).
    • Or expand the trope to allow MORE than one character in the story, so the trope would be "characters who are the most feared" [this would allow feared mafia members and gangs to count for example] (2).
    • Or expand the trope to allow both options (1) and (2).
  • Split off misuse for non-villainous/non-anti-heroic characters, aka purely heroic characters to their own trope, but IDK what to name it (Heroically Dreaded ?).
  • Just cleanup misuse and ZCEs (not effective and won't prevent future misuse).

Thoughts? I wanna discuss it here so we wouldn't stall/argue a lot in the thread when it's made in TRS.

I'm not sure where the "one per story" rule came from, though I do get the diminishing returns if everyone is hyped as the biggest threat possible.

I would say there should be a clear dividing line between The Dreaded and Famed In-Story, as The Dreaded should not just be a known figure but someone so intimidating people want to bail rather than risk it. If the response is just "I need a bigger gun" it doesn't convey the desperation or being higher on the threat level the trope is supposed to be.

Because The Dreaded says "the most feared person in the story", which logically can't be more than one person until we change that.

Right, it's just sort of inherent to the definition.

It would be good to put The Dreaded into the queue first, since we have more than enough time to discuss solutions / the scope until it's this trope's turn to be in TRS.

For examples that involve more than one character, they are split into the following, including but not limited to:

• Ominous / villainous organizations as a whole.
• Separate characters, but one of them stands out as the most feared. If A is the most feared, then B and C should be cut.
• Separate characters with equal footing. (Hypothetical example: A and B are on opposing sides. Both A and B are the most feared.)
• The scenario where A is the most feared character in the setting initially, but B later usurps A's position as the most feared, then C usurps B, rinse and repeat.

I think allowing an entity who are grouped together and single characters while not allowing separate, unrelated characters is a good idea, but the rest of the criteria is confusing to follow and apply. We shouldn't create more rules that don't fix anything, but create solutions that deal with the misuse and other issues.

I have a lot of projects that I'm working on. One in particular is related to this trope, and I've been getting conflicting results. Normally, I'd take such a thing to "Is this an example", but since the trope in question has its own thread right here... would this be a valid example, or does it fall under something else:

• The Dreaded: (character a), normally a heroic (if sometimes moody) individual, has become a source of fear for villains over the years.
  • (character a) becomes a major source of dread for the generally antiheroic and sometimes antivillainous (character b) after an event which sees (character b) inadvertently prompting (character a) to go mad and subsequently demonstrate enough power to injure (character b), who's otherwise been Made of Indestructium against anything without anti-magic powers, when the latter realizes his error and tries to talk (character a) down. Due to this event, even years after it happened, (character b) still gets nervous whenever (character a) walks into the same room as him even if (character a) is currently in a good mood.
  • (character a) is also a source of dread to lesser enemies when he arrives on the same battlefield; due to his reputation as an incredibly powerful being and Person of Mass Destruction, just the sight of him typically evokes a reaction of "Run away!"

Anon e Mouse Jr.

Edited by AnoneMouseJr on Jun 1st 2023 at 7:31:18 AM

Hmm, if character A isn't a straight-up villain (Anti Villains count too IMO) or an Anti-Hero themselves, then they immediately don't count. It doesn't matter if the other side who is scared of character A is villainous or anti-heroic; their morality isn't part of the trope.

Much appreciated.

Where would a trope for a hero who terrifies the bad guys (even when he's not aiming to — not a Terror Hero, because they are aiming to scare enemies) go then? I've been trying to find an alternative, but not much luck.

Until next time...

Anon e Mouse Jr.

Edited by AnoneMouseJr on Jun 1st 2023 at 12:11:14 PM

There's none as of now, which is why this trope is misused for good heroic characters when they don't fit.

If the trope gets expanded or the misuse is split off into its own trope, there might be a place for heroic characters scaring others exames and not just the bad guys.

Well, here's hoping it happens.

My thanks for the help. :)

Until next time...

Anon e Mouse Jr.

I know the definition says otherwise, but I don't think keeping one example is a good idea. Mostly because I don't see how we could identify which character is objectively the most feared character.

I mean, if there's more than one, then neither apply because there's no particular onw who's the most feared; it's now just characters who are feared in general.

That affects the other requirements of the trope, you see?

I see.

If we do restrict, then we should probaly also change the trope name to reflect that there can only be one. Otherwise, we will just get the same missuse immediatly after TRS is done.

Something like "The Most Dreaded" could work, but there's probaly better idea.

I feel like the word "The" already implies singular. They're not "A Dreaded", they're "The Dreaded".

It's clearly not working though.

Plus, there are other trope that start with "The" that aren't for a singular character.

Good suggestion. I'll add it to the wick check.

But why should we keep it as heroic characters not fitting? I don't see what's stopping us from just doing a cleanup that allows heroic characters to count, it seems unnecessary to make a whole different trope that is just "The Dreaded but for good guys".

I feel like it's sort of a different concept. A traditional hero isn't going to be feared by all because, well, they're a good person that people trust. An Anti-Hero might, but that's already covered. A character feared specifically by their enemies isn't really the same as a character who is the most feared character in the story, and that simply isn't likely to apply to good-guy hero types.

That's also one prominent category of The Dreaded's uses, "The enemies of X panic if they hear about X coming", and I'm not sure if it's a good one.

Yes, and there are also Played for Laughs examples. I think these are noteworthy because mothers, for example, tend to be made as feared characters by their whole family members in fiction because of stereotypes about moms being scary. And these examples of heroic but still feared mothers or even fathers should find someplace to document. I even thought of making a Comically Feared trope before doing the wick check to catch some of the misuse.

But that's still not the same trope as "the most feared character in the story", unless the story only centers around the family and this is a running gag or something.