Tabletop Game Folderization

For tropes about game mechanics, it often makes sense to split the folder for Tabletop Games into subcategories. While the current system (Board Games, Card Games, Collectable Card Games, Tabletop RPGs) is useful, it clumps together a lot of games that have little to do with each other, while stranding some entries from the same franchise (e.g. Monopoly Deal, a card game, being separated from its source material). There's been some back and forth on the best way to handle this on the general tabletop sandbox but clearly, a forum would be the better space to hold this conversation.

I had a bit of a problem with the Oniverse series of games when dealing with the solo board game page as the Oniverse also uses more than just cards in their games, such as nautilion, which has lots of tokens, standees and dice compared to the number of cards. Perhaps the Oniverse series should have its own work page.

EDIT: Here is what was on the sandbox page for your own convenience:

• How should these be folderized? Should we make separate folders for board games, card games, etc.? Should we make one "Tabletop Games" folder and use subheaders for the individual types of board games? The latter seems like the better option, as it mirrors the approach for video games.
• The Board Games vs. Card Games distinction feels rather arbitrary to me. This leads to oddities like Uno sharing a folder with Dominion, while Monopoly shares a different folder with Terraforming Mars. Should we ditch it? I propose that we can sort out games that use a traditional 52-card deck and lump the rest together. That's a clear-cut distinction, and it's useful (e.g. if you like to carry a traditional deck around).
• Should Dice Games be a category?
• What if a game doesn't fit any of the component-based categorizations, like Jenga? I think this is a minor strike against component-based categorizations. Maybe something like "a game revolving around an unusual component" can be troped.
• I definitely think Collectible Card Games and Tabletop RPGs should be separated out because they are pretty clearly defined, and they have a different appeal than most other types of tabletop games. I also think there's a good case for separating out Wargames.
• Should we divide games into genres like Euro Games and Ameritrash Games?
• If we make Ameritrash Games into a genre for categorizing, should it be renamed into something less derogatory-sounding like American-Style Board Game or Amerigame for short?
• Dividing according to mechanics like worker placement is not a great idea because a lot of games mix and match mechanics.
• Nona: I'm still inclined to group games by their components - i.e. Board, Card, Dice, etc. with RPGs and CCGs getting their own categories. To someone who doesn't play tabletop games, this is the easiest way to find what they're looking for.
• Maths: I still prefer genre categorization. If you're interested enough in a game to look for examples, you probably know where to look. Also, this approach is consistent with that for video games.
• Twist: I think I have to agree that components is the way to go. Board game genres can be very soft, and for some games, it can be hard to determine what the "main" genre would be. Dune Imperium, for example—would it be called primarily a deck-building game, or primarily worker placement? Sure, multiple pages for different board-game genres is absolutely a good idea so that a game with multiple genres can be indexed in different places. But I don't think that should be "top-level."
• Maths: I agree that sorting according to mechanics would be problematic, as I wrote earlier. My ideal set of categories would probably look something like this (in addition to CCGs and RPGs, which we agree on separating out): Abstract Strategy Games, Ameritrash Games, Euro Games, Family Games, Party Games and Wargames. This is much more interesting to read to someone who is into board games (and someone who isn't could just skip everything except Family and Party). In my opinion, component-based sorting isn't worth the effort because it tells you little about the game. If we're lumping together games as different as Uno and Dominion, we might as well put them in the same folder as Monopoly and Terraforming Mars. (I do think separating out games using a traditional-52-card-deck games is worth it. These games don't just happen to both feature cards. They use the exact same deck of cards, which is useful to know.) This also eliminates the need for an "Other" category for games with unusual components like Jenga.
• Nona: About to make a thread for this anyway, actually seeing your proposed categories, that's much clearer than I expected, though still not perfect. For example, Liar's Dice isn't any of the above while TTR: First Journey is both a family game and a Eurogame. Also, where exactly is the cutoff between a family game and a game that's simply appropriate for all ages?

Edited by Diamondeye218 on Feb 21st 2023 at 2:09:03 PM

Here's my proposed list of categories. It has had some changes from the one on my post on the sandbox page:

• Abstract Strategy Game
• American-Style Board Games: A rename of the derogatory-sounding Ameritrash Games. If you're unfamiliar with the term and opened the "Tabletop Games" looking for Monopoly, you'd probably wonder why TV Tropes is calling these games trash.
• Casual Games: A term that catches both family games and party games. Also covers games that are really only appealing to kids, like Candy Land.
• Collectible Card Games
• Eurogames
• Tabletop RPGs
• Traditional Deck Games: I normally don't like component-based categories, but this one is useful because all of these games use the same components. Many of these don't fit neatly into any other categories anyway.
• Traditional Dice Games: Similar arguments as above. Covers stuff like Liar's Dice.
• Wargames
• A category for games mostly about playing the opponents, like Social Deduction Games?

As for whether TTR: First Journey should go under "Family Games" (now "Casual Games") or "Eurogames", I suggest that we agree on a standard for Junior Variants and apply it consistently. I think it's more practical to use the parent game's genre. "Casual Game" also helps address the issue of "cutoff between a family game and a game that's simply appropriate for all ages": if it's primarily meant as a casual game for families, it's a Casual Game. Otherwise it goes into the appropriate genre folder.

(I do think it's okay for a spin-off in a different genre to end up in a different folder from its parent game. That happens for video games too.)

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Feb 21st 2023 at 4:56:54 PM

Perhaps we can also add in roll and writes too.

Bump.

Well, personally speaking, going back to change all the folders thus far seems like a lot of work for something that isn't really causing problems, but I could see the argument that these folders could get bloated if left alone for too long. I'm inclined to think keep, but Maths (and anyone else leaning switch), do you think the current folder setup is causing problems, or is it primarily a matter of preference?

Bump

I brought up this issue for two reasons:

1: I find the inconsistency annoying: some pages lump everything together under Tabletop Games, while others separate out Board Games, some also separate out Card Games, and so on. I'd prefer having a standard — preferably one that mirrors the approach to video games for consistency.

2: While it's not causing serious problems, I find the current approach poor enough that I don't want to keep using it as we work on adding tabletop game tropes. It's better to ditch it now rather than later.

At the risk of bring pedantic, I think pages that don't split out examples at all are just doing what you would for video games on a non-gaming trope. Otherwise, both points, especially the second, check out.

Okay, this might be a tad premature, but on the TLP for First Game Configuration, the two examples given so far feature one person not knowing which folder their entry belonged to and another who simply said "card games." If this is any indication, I think this backs up the concerns about the average troper not knowing how to classify games well enough to folderize them properly.

I definitely think it's too early to give up on the idea of improved folderization, but you have a valid concern about games that are hard to categorize. I'd put Sentinels of the Multiverse in a "Thematic Games" folder, but there are a lot of fuzzy distinctions. (When is a game simple enough to be a Family Game instead of a Eurogame? If a game relies on its family-friendly theme and has simple gameplay, does it go under Thematic or Family?) (I don't think a random user putting "Card Games" means the approach is bad, though — maybe they just didn't realize that "Card Games" is not a category we want.)

Maybe we could use this more conservative approach for now:

• Abstract Strategy Games
• Collectible Card Games
• Tabletop RPGs
• Traditional Games: Games that only use a normal 52-card deck (or equivalent), normal d6s, or so on. Could be split into "Traditional Deck Games" and "Traditional Dice Games" if necessary. Could also be renamed "Traditional Component Games" if you're worried about someone splitting hairs over whether something like Mao is old enough to count. Or "Traditional Deck and Dice Games" to be as self-explanatory as possible. That does have the issue of excluding some traditional games, but most of those are Abstract Strategy Games anyway.
• Wargames
• Other Tabletop Games

All of the listed genres are distinct and easy to recognize. This approach also has the benefit that we can sort out the "Other" folder later on as the approach gets more refined.

I would like to sort out party games and kids'/family games, but this would be a good start.

I feel pretty strongly about wanting component-based sorting gone. It's arbitrary and adds little useful information. The only exception is the "traditional component game" because "you can play this with that 52-card deck / those dice you have lying around" is useful, and many traditional games are hard to categorize either way.

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Mar 7th 2023 at 5:06:56 PM

IMO, if we aren't going to distinguish between Eurogames, Ameritrash, and other games, I'd rather split "other games" into "Other Board Games" and "Other Card Games". Abstract Strategy Games might be self-explanatory, but I'm also a tad worried we're only innately familiar with it from being in the board game sphere. That said, I lean towards keeping that folder, because for anyone who does know the definition, it's a pretty easy line to draw. Looks good otherwise - I have little doubt the other folders are self-explanatory.

Whatever way we split (if any), let's not call them Ameritrash, please and thank you.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Mar 9th 2023 at 9:09:20 AM

I do want folders for Eurogames and American-style games eventually, but I like having placeholder folders while we figure out how to handle this.

I strongly agree. Even if it turns out that most fans of the genre use "Ameritrash" as a term of affection and are okay with it, that name is bound to get accusations of Complaining About Genres You Don't Like from casual readers (who may wonder why TV Tropes is calling the genre trash) and fans who are less fond of the term.

I think the main problems we need to solve are...

• Eurogames vs. family games: When does it count as the former? Living Forest is one I wanted to put in the Eurogames category, but BoardGameGeek lists as "Family" and not something like "Strategic".
• American-style games vs. family games: Where do we put games that focus on a family-friendly theme?
• Family games vs. party games: Is this distinction worth having? Obviously Candy Land is the former and Cards Against Humanity is the latter, but there's a lot of overlap. Maybe these could be collapsed into a "Casual Games" folder?
• Where do we put games that focus on playing the opponents? Many eurogames have bluffing or negotiation elements, but what about something like Werewolf?

I have a few suggestions:

• Using "Thematic Game" or "Theme-Oriented Game" instead of "American-Style Game"/"Ameritrash", as it's easier to understand.
• Having "Theme-Oriented Game" and "Eurogame" both override the "Casual Game" designation. This reserves "Casual Game" for stuff like CAH, as well as other types of games (dexterity games, speed games, etc.) that don't fit the existing classifications. This also means that a Junior Variant will go in the same folder as the parent game.

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Mar 10th 2023 at 4:46:34 PM

I suppose Werewolf is a social deduction game, but so does blood on the clocktower.

Should Social Deduction Game should be its own genre in our forderization? I think it would be viable. The biggest strike against it is that it isn't that intuitive, but I think it'd be all right.

Social Deduction Games are a pretty clear distinction, but I'm worried that category would cause people to clump the likes of Werewolf and Among Us together.

Pardon the double post, but two more thoughts that I feel are enough to warrant it.

1. For any new folder we plan to make, we should also put out a TLP ASAP if one doesn't exist already. If the page already exists, we should take the time to make it high quality. Hopefully, the reasoning is self-explanatory. If no one else beats me to it, I'll happily work on Abstract Strategy Game.
2. Tangential to some concerns involving Casual/Family/Party game distinctions, I'm starting to think Dexterity Game might be a worthwhile category. Games built around the laws of physics and using your hands are definitely distinct enough from anything else, that if we can come up with a clear definition and name, that could certainly help the otherwise-parent folder a fair bit.

(Edit: Removed a comment that was meant for a TLP, but accidentally ended up here. Sorry about that.)

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Mar 13th 2023 at 6:37:53 PM

I think it would be fine. We'd probably keep tabletop game folders and video game folders in separate groups anyway.

1. That's a good catch. I'd gladly help you with Abstract Strategy Game.
2. Dexterity Game is a good category. Though we need to separate it from games that just happen to have dexterity challenges thrown in (e.g. Carcassonne with the notorious Catapult expansion). (Would Dexterity Challenge be a good trope for that?)

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Mar 13th 2023 at 4:14:13 PM

I'm good with separate tropes for dexterity games and dexterity components if there's enough examples if each.

Also, probably won't have much free time tonight, but I'll happily get working on ASG once I have some time.

BoardGameGeek has thousands of games in the "Action/Dexterity" category, so there shouldn't be a shortage of examples. Though it does bring up an important point: should we lump dexterity games together with other "action" games that aren't quite about dexterity (e.g. Jungle Speed, which is in the BGG category)? I'm leaning towards lumping together all the ones with a physical element, even if it's just something like Jungle Speed's "grab the totem when two identical cards show up".

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Mar 13th 2023 at 6:32:33 PM

I agree with lumping as you described.

Definitely.

As for the rest, this feels at risk of devolving into hierarchical and very vaguely hierarchical at that. Like, there's no point having a casual game distinction if you immediately remove the majority of casual games from it to put them somewhere else.

True, especially since a lot of games have multiple mechanics