Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Yussssss to John Wick himself!
Caesar
Pencil me in as a Yes to John Wick! Spectacular work.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 7th 2023 at 5:14:04 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Fuck yes to Keanu Reeves' best role, aka: The Master Assassin himself.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 7th 2023 at 5:14:14 AM
Yes. To. John. Wick.
And now...Every devil needs an adviser:
who is Winston?
A dapper, intelligent, man and the manager of the Continental of New York City. Winston is the primary authority on all matters High Table who goes back years with John himself in a Mysterious Past. The only man who might otherwise be said to be close to Winston is his concierge, the ever-polite and helpful Charon. In movie 1, Winston welcomes John back, but clearly knows of his reluctance, telling John that to "dip even a pinky back into this pond" is to risk being dragged in. Winston provides cleanup services, sanctuary, but there is one STRICT rule: no business on Continental grounds.
One assassin named Ms. Perkins violates the rule by going after John and is subdued. She escapes and kills another veteran named Harry (both John and Harry are conscientious to avoid killing her and plan to turn her over to Winston)...Winston lures her to a trap and informs her that her membership tot he Continental has been "by thine own hand. Revoked) and has her shot dead.
When Santino presses John into service, he calls in a very important factor: The Marker. a blood oath, as Santino once helped John escape the life to begin with. Winston manages the markers and informs John he cannot refuse, but also warns Santino that betraying John is a terrible idea...when John confronts Santino in the Continental, Santino makes it clear he plans to remain in the hotel indefinitely and despite Winston's pleas to walk away, John executes Santino. Winston delays his Excommunicado status as long as he can to give him a chance to run.
Movie 3 sees an Adjudicator, the judge of the High Table, arrive, none too happy that Winston helped John and gives him a week to get his affairs in order. Winston's new defiance does not sit well with the Table and the Elder offers John a new place if he kills Winston. Winston pulls John back on his side and the Adjudicator unleashes Zero and his forces on the hotel, with Winston calmly allowing John and Charon to clean it up...and hilariously taking a call from the Adjudicator and hanging up on them when they try a threat.
Winston, realizing this is fruitless, makes an under the table deal and new truce, calling a meeting to reinstate his status...and betrays John, shooting him off the roof. John survives and escapes, with Winston still reigning over the Continental.
Until the Marquis de Gramont comes to power, destroys the Continental and punishes Winston by executing Charon, who dies telling his best friend "it has been an honor," to Winston's rage and grief. Winston calls a meeting with John and buries the hatchet, putting his encyclopedic work of the Hgih Table to use in giving John the obscure, nigh-mythic tradition of duels...and gives John a way back in by helping the Ruska Roma. He handles talkign to de Gramont to set up the duel and is forced to be John's second, risking his life as well...
Winston ultimately waits out the duel, putting his faith in John and when de Gramont readies the coup de grace, Winston laughs at him for being an "arrogant asshole" not realizing John still has one bullet left. John blows de Gramont away and seemingly passes away...the final scene is the Bowery King and Winston at John's graveside, Winston's prestige returned and he can only muster a "who knows?" when asked if John is in heaven or hell, before saying "rest my son" in Russian...
But given the franchise is set to continue....
Well, ol' Winston is known for his plots...
Mitigating issues?
Winston is charm personified. He's polite, cultured, pleasant, and honestly he's a blast to talk to. He's a wise mentor, a good friend, and a dangerous enemy. now, I should not mince words: Winston facilitates a very dangerous system and it's pretty clear you can't take part in the system of the underworld and NOT be a bastard. Winston is all too happy to facilitate murders and when it benefits him, he explicitly betrays John with "oh, he has to die!" for his own sake. The only reason this is forgotten is because of the memory of Charon.
When Charon dies, Winston outright states it should have been him and he spends Charon's last moments holding his hand in comfort. Charon's tombstone, at the last, states "FRIEND." Winston will use people and even discard them, but in the end? He does love John and Charon and he has a sort of friendship or at least decent working relationship with the Bowery King. but yeah, he really does reveal the depth of his love for John in 4, and their history goes deep.
But ultimately, John's victories could not be possible without Winston. He points out the futility of just killing the Table and is the one to get the duel plan going.
You might get the better of Winston here and there but if you do? Make SURE you kill him. Because he won't stop until you're done for and he's smart and well connected enough to end you.
Conclusion?
The easiest keep from the series. IMHO
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Wickster himself, but even bigger to Winston. Really goes to show, behind every mastermind and an even wittier right-hand
Edited by RhinoBeloved2 on Apr 7th 2023 at 5:19:44 AM
Winston.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
to John Wick / Baba Yaga.
to Winston.
Also late but happy to Yancy. Loved that series.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright here's my first of 3 JW proposals, The Bowery King. I'll just call him BK in the proposal so it's easier to type.
Who is the Bowery King
An unnamed man who was once targeted by Wick for an unknown reason, the BK had managed to survive the encounter despite Wick slashing him twice. From there, the BK took over The Soup Kitchen and created an empire with the homeless and less fortunate as his eyes and ears in his city, using pigeons to communicate as messengers, letting him be able to remain under radar.
In John Wick 2, John is trying to evade assassins tracking him when Santino put a $7 million bounty on him. Finding a beggar, he pleads that the beggar takes him to the BK. When Wick meets the BW he asks for firearm support from him. Although amused that John would ask him for help after he attempted to kill him prior, the BK does give John a gun, albeit one with 7 bullets, one per mil of the bounty.
In John Wick 3, with John being excommunicado, the BK contacts the Continental to alert them that he'd follow the rules and will not let John uses his services. The Adjudicator from the high table visits the BK and says the BK has a week to get his affairs in order for his actions, the BK rebuffs the notion stating he himself didn't do anything to Santino and that he gave John the gun prior to the climax of 2.
The Adjudicator returns with Zero and his assassins and wipe out most of his workers within his hideout, the corner the BK who's impressed with their determination. The BK accepts the penance which would be 7 slashes for each bullet he provided John. The BK's response?
After Winston shoots Wick off the rooftop, one of the BK's men rescues him and brings him to the BK who agrees with John about declaring war on the High Table, after the Adjudicator had his men killed and had unfairly punished him with their wonky rule bending.
In John Wick 4, John and the BK develop a friendship and bond between each other. When the Marquis destroys the Continental, Winston meets with the BK at Charon's grave and asks him to meet John. Despite the BK's suspicions (since you know Winston shot John), he arranges a meeting for John and Winston.
When John prepares for his duel, Winston and the BK meet him in Paris in which the BK provides John with a bulletproof vest and a new gun to let Wick go through the assassins between John and his duel, later giving Winston and John a ride to the duel, remarking about his chosen grave epitaph being "Long Live the King". The BK is last seen with Winston at John's grave, showing that the BK has taken in John's dog to look after. The BK openly wonders whether John had gone to hell or was he reunited with Helen before the two men depart.
Is he Magnificent?
From a mere unnamed target of Wick who had somehow survived the man's attack (as the films show Wick is a fucking masterclass of assassin), the BK manages to orchestrate an entire underground network of the homeless and uses methods such as pigeons to avoid detection via technology. Unlike the other leaders in the series, the BK never used the High Table as his backup as he did this of his own accord.
Without the BK, John would've been severely fucked as he was the reason John had the weapon for attacking Santino. He's shown to care about his men and pigeons. Him swearing loyalty to the table before his penance wasn't seen as cowardice as he has this to say:
Lawrence Fishburne carries this character to being a charming type with one lines out the bag and the BK being a character free of cowardice. Sure he's not an ass kicking assassin but the guy managed to survive an attack from Wick and has the command and respect of many of his followers.
Is he a bastard?
The world's a very grey one with the only two genuinely "good" characters being John's two dogs. The BK may not be operate under high table but he still follows their rules of assassinations. His men aren't afraid of murder as the one who takes John to him in 2 casually murders the two assassins after Wick.
Despite Wick wounding him prior to the story, the BK doesn't kill him when the meet after so many years but gives him a gun with only 7 bullets against Santino (who bear in mind is a member of the high table and is always surrounded by guards), with the BK remarking that it's one bullet per million.
Final Verdict?
Your call folks.
Oh and easy to John and Winston.
Edited by WetFlannels on Apr 7th 2023 at 1:48:01 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Absolute yes to Winston. An even bigger and more magnificent yet dirty mastermind than John Wick. Same with the Bowery King. As for John Wick himself, I guess yes.
And I'm guessing these thre aren't the only ones, am I right?
Edited by despoa on Apr 7th 2023 at 8:48:20 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Nah we've plenty more.
to Mr. Big, Remake Ada Wong, and especially John Wick. I was wondering if the reason John Wick didn't count prior was that his arc wasn't finished yet.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Winston and the pigeon man himself
Caesar
That's a Yes to Winston and the Bowery King!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
And a "yes" to Winston and the Bowery King. I'll have one of the two new keeps from Chapter 4 soon.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
BTW since a Wick page is inevitable since there's 3 currents, the big 3 we got up, me and Scraggle have 2 comfortable ones from 4 and me and Lighty have 2 maybes. Would the page split be worth having Franchse-Wide then individual films?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
To Winston and Bowery king (it would not be right to just call him BK)
Especially because BK usually refers to something else.
Was the film version of Grumpy the one that went up and not the show one? Have seen the movie—a while ago though. Read the entry just now and .
Put the John Wick tree in the drafts with placeholders. Six film keepers including a duo right now, but as for any other keepers, I'll leave that to those familiar with the series. Gotta binge all these movies now.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
We were passing the obvious joke.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 7th 2023 at 6:46:03 AM
Burger King.
Buzz
Yes to John and the other two
There's also a keeper from John Wick (Maria)
Edited by Paperfly on Apr 7th 2023 at 7:36:46 AM
Image Pickin' Backlog
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Oh thanks for spotting that!
Lies and Violence!
Winston and the Bowery King. Also, there may be a slight delay on the last Ninjago one. There's something semi-related I want to get to first.
to John Wick and company.
Big to Winston and Bowery King. Waited on both those guys for years
Yes to John Wick, the Bowery King, and Winston.
I just proposed a cut for a couple of MB's over at the clean up thread for those who want to chime in.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
“Consequences”
Big ass![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
to the Baba Yaga himself
"No running in the halls!"