Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
The Danny quote is definitely a good one for the inevitable Ocean's Eleven page as well. Speaking of which, to both the proposal thread and drafts the next three go!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
John Wick quote added to the sandbox.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Alright... Daroach passed voting but Scraggle reached out to me on this one and stated the character being blinded by greed and possessed as a result of opening Dark Nebula's chest is played as far more than a "minor slipup" and that this warrants more of a talk. I don't have firsthand experience so can't comment much further but I feel we should discuss this.
Lizzid people!
Sounds disqualifying enough.
Woagh
Yeah i remembered that Scraggs mentioned this when Daroach was first brought up. IMO if he continued to scheme afterwards i'd be fine as he does learn from the incident, but after his original game he has almost no really smart/amoral actions other than helping Kirby. Gonna go with a cut.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Gave the cutscene in question a quick watch link and nothing here indicates Daroach could've realistically expected that outcome. That said, I'm only watching this scene in a vacuum, so if my assessment is wrong, then that's cutworthy. For now, leaning keep.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He was informed the chest was dangerous, right?
I’m more concerned about the notes that the character is more of a greedy thug than the debonair thief he thinks he is. The EP stated there wasn’t much in game to back that up and I can see where one would draw that conclusion but this does seem to be a hint to the contrary and I think it’s worth taking into account.
Are we good to cut the two from Magic I brought a while ago?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Woagh
I just wanna mention the games do treat him like a suave treasure hunter... after he screws up and Kirby saves him. When he returns and gets an actual personality, he's pretty much a good guy who only hunts for treasure instead of stealing it from other people. Basically by the time he recovers he can't really be called a bastard.
Seems like people are down with it.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Apr 14th 2023 at 6:02:04 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
I’m fine with cutting the two Magic candidates.
As for Daroach I want hear Scraggle’s thoughts on the guy
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 14th 2023 at 9:11:13 AM
Yeah, unfortunately, I have to say "cut" Daroach. The entirety of Squeak Squad builds up to him ignoring any consequences of stealing the treasure chest and subsequently getting possessed by Dark Nebula, which makes him come off as Dark Nebula's total Unwitting Pawn (even if Dark Nebula is in function a Generic Doomsday Villain). By the time he returns in Mass Attack he's lost any and all credentials he once had as a "bastard," and his recovery is mostly just limited to him being a helpful (if someone opportunistic) ally of Kirby.
Daroach is one of those guys who looks good on paper, IMO, but doesn't make it in execution. Being stylish doesn't make up for playing yourself into the hands of a horrible, bodyjacking demon, especially when the plot is as threadbare as it is in the Kirby games.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 14th 2023 at 8:48:49 AM
Alright, if the game builds this up, I've gotta go cut on Daroach.
cut Daroach
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 14th 2023 at 2:20:11 PM
Not the Eye
Cut Daroach
The Yggdrasil Cretin
Daroach wasn't informed the chest was dangerous and couldn't have expected Dark Nebula being in it. In what the game gives us Meta Knight simply ran off with the chest without saying a word to Kirby nor Daroach.
As for Mass Attack onwards M.B.ery, he has a spy network with the Squeakers that he sent to scout and gather intel and that's why he's able to give the Kirbies advice on the levels and how to find stuff.
And he's a Bastard for But Thou Must!-ing the Kirbies into gathering medals for him (aka child endangerment), is still a thief (like when he steals the Lor from Magolor in a Star Allies menu cutscene) and admits to respecting Necrodeus' goal of a world of darkness, only wanting to stop him so his treasure can still shine.
Edited by KoshaVinka on Apr 15th 2023 at 3:00:07 PM
The Yggdrasil Cretin
Star Allies description of him reads "There's nothing he can't- or won't- steal", so he's confirmed to still be a thief.
Again, in Mass Attack he successfully gets the medals through the Kirbies (if the player is good).
As for recovering from the Dark Nebula incident (in which I don't see how he was an Unwitting Pawn rather than a guy who opened the wrong chest. Dark Nebula didn't Whisper to him or anything unless something in the manual proves me wrong), he's still going around stealing treasure afterwards and we at least see he's very graceful about the Nebula ordeal, he seems to even joke about it: One of his Star Allies attacks is a Dark Nebula Jack-in-the-Box, while in an ending art he's seen drawing Dark Nebula ( link).
What he actually does is more important than what the flavor text tells us he supposedly does. Cut Daroach.
Not really seeing much villainy from the way the narrative casts him in the following games: this sounds like a standard quest giver who's hoping the protagonist will succeed—not like Ulrich from Dragonheart who gets a loyal servant killed without informing him of his plans—and I don't think there's enough to offset his possession.
The Yggdrasil Cretin
And I still don't see how he's an Unwitting Pawn to Dark Nebula, he couldn't have known that specific chest out of hundreds he stole without issue would've had friggin Satan in it.
Now, This is the page of Daroach's dialogue in Mass Attack, and some of the stuff in here should make him come across as just enough of a Bastard in there too.
First of all, he tells you that many of the Kirbies will die, but to make it what matters is one survives. So he expects and wants one Kirby to survive and succeed, but never the less is fully willing to have multiple of the Kirbies die on these missions he's forcing them to go on.
Also: "The scuttlebutt is that there's a gold creature living on this island. Seems like a good critter to go hunting for, doesn't it!"
This is Daroach on the Golden Beanbon, a harmless enemy that tries to flee when it sees the Kirbies. Daroach wording it as "hunting" for them further makes it come off as murdering a creature (no, making a child murder it) to get wealth.
Edited by KoshaVinka on Apr 15th 2023 at 5:51:17 PM
Also: "The scuttlebutt is that there's a gold creature living on this island. Seems like a good critter to go hunting for, doesn't it!"
This is Daroach on the Golden Beanbon, a harmless enemy that tries to flee when it sees the Kirbies. Daroach wording it as "hunting" for them further makes it come off as murdering a creature (no, making a child murder it) to get wealth.
All of this is exaggeration. Daroach isn't "forcing" Kirby to go on missions, he's just acting as an ally with a humorous case of But Thou Must! (that is not played as Daroach forcing Kirby into "child endangerment" or anything remotely close to it). He's not "forcing a child to murder" a helpless innocent, he's encouraging Kirby to go for a rare Underground Monkey because the game itself incentivises you to go for those enemies. That's not portrayed as being a "bastard"; this is literally just a video game hero killing video game enemies. If we were going to make these kinda of logical leaps with other characters, the entirety of Squeak Squad would be Kirby mercilessly and ruthlessly murdering everything in his path because he wants cake.
That's a funny Alternate Character Interpretation, but it's not canon. No more than these claims you're trying to make about Daroach. Seriously, the only vaguely "bastardly" thing Daroach does after Squeak Squad is continue to style himself as Gentleman Thief, but (as evinced here) you'd really have to stretch to say he's still bad enough.
I'm staying a hard "no" to Daroach.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 15th 2023 at 4:48:28 AM
Woagh
Yeah, doubling down on my cut vote thanks to those arguments. That's like saying Mario is bad enough for just killing enemies.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
The Yggdrasil Cretin
Just kiddin'! Guess my favourite Kirby character doesn't cut it. Alright!
Though this all thing confirmed something to me: Keene Milton from Housepets! will Veeery likely not cut it either, since he accidentally got an Eldritch Abomination demon unleashed after being warned multiple times.
Edited by KoshaVinka on Apr 15th 2023 at 1:17:37 PM
Cut Daroach given Scraggle's analysis. Is there anything seriously disqualifying in the Magolor story about Return to Dreamland remake for Magolor too?
Good for both!