Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
My knowledge with Jojo is quite sparse, having only seen 1-3 but unless someone brings up a convincing argument, I'm gonna lean a cut for now. Being a crime lord he has one of the higher resource margins in the series I think.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Professor Gigachad
Yeah, resources probably isn't the argument you could use to save Diavalo as he is a super-powerful crime lord. Leaning cut for now.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Caesar
Alright, lemme tackle these...
Diavolo is heinous enough, IMO. He buried his own mother alive and left her to die in the fire he started that burned down his whole town, he uses drugs on children in an act that is portrayed as particularly reprehensible by the other characters, he brutally mutilates and drinks the blood of a child, he has his own minions horrifically butchered, he unleashes Cioccolatta, he wants to kill his own underage daughter, etc.
We've been over his feelings on Cioccolata before, as well. Diavolo expresses "disgust" with them, but...he never flat out spells out that it's out of Even Evil Has Standards, simply referring to them as disgusting and people he doesn't like. Diavolo enables Cioccolata to go on a mass slaughter spree and his only vocalized reasons to want to eliminate them afterwards is Pragmatic Villainy and to ensure they don't survive and use Trish against him—he spells out as much.
Lastly? No, I don't think we can solidly say he harbors any true feelings for Donatella. He's infuriated when he learns that a picture he himself took still exists and could be used against him, and he abandoned her years ago and she died alone and broken that he never returned to her. I don't think "he would have killed her if he truly didn't care" really works here when Diavolo by all means cut all ties with her and left her out to dry, and never once shows anything resembling affection in the present. Hell, it might have caused him more issues to try to hunt her down and kill her than just ghosting her and never acknowledging her existence again.
I'm pretty firm against cutting him, myself. All of these points have come up in the past and I continue to maintain none of them are truly disqualifying, myself.
Edited by Ravok on Dec 17th 2022 at 7:08:47 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Him sending Doppio to rein him in is even more of a strike against him if you consider that Doppio is Diavolo, or at least him Split Personality, meaning that he's putting himself in harm's way in order to reduce the amount of casualties.
Edited by Zuxtron on Dec 17th 2022 at 10:08:43 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Yeah I'm a keep for Diavolo.
The First man
Professor Gigachad
I can possibly buy that his feelings toward what Cioccolata does to not be redeeming on the surface. But the issue comes that Diavolo is a character with the resources to do much worse but due to his own pragmatism actively tries to avoid harming civilians unless he needs to. We have had issues with characters being disqualified for that before, being too pragmatic to the point where they end up outclassed by those with less to work with (Darth Bane and Bradford Buzzard come to mind). So I am wondering what exactly makes this different.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 17th 2022 at 7:17:19 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
I haven't seen that part yet but based on his write up he doesn't sound as bad as most of the other characters we have up because he practices Pragmatic Villainy more than them. Leaning cut especially with what Lighty said about redeeming qualities.
Moving to an abstain with Rovk's input, I'm with him on the redeeming qualities side I'm just not sure if he's bad enough given his resources.
Edited by papyru30 on Dec 17th 2022 at 8:17:44 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
I see Ravok's points on the lack of redeeming qualities. My only sticking point would be the issue with the drugs on kids.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
How does the story showcase the kids and drugs because this series doesn't shy away from getting nasty? It could be treated as nasty in story but is there any visual aid?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Caesar
He doesn't try to avoid harming civilians...he casually murders a random fortune teller and cab driver for pissing him off, he mutilates and nearly kills a child, he burned down his hometown, he slings drugs to kids...the only case of his Pragmatic Villainy seeming to want to avoid civilian casualties is with Cioccolata but again, Diavolo isn't averse to them because of the casualties. He spells out that they'll carve a path of destruction through Rome, and that he just wants to kill them after they have eliminated the heroes so that they won't use Trish or the Stand Arrow against him. The Pragmatic Villainy here is being kind of misattributed as "he wants to stop civilian casualties" when it's more like "he wants to kill the guys he unleashed on civilians so they won't be a threat afterwards."
Edited by Ravok on Dec 17th 2022 at 7:18:34 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Alright, I'm leaning keep now. Maybe just rewrite to get the full scope of his deeds in
Caesar
Yeah, I am absolutely all for a rewrite being done and will happily chip in there if needed.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
What’s different from Buzzard is it’s being argued he has his own crimes to bolster his own rap sheet. He might be pragmatic in some senses but there’s more to this beyond “Unleashes a worse minion”. I’m leaning keep as well.
Professor Gigachad
Okay my mistake, I seem to have misunderstood a bit. Yeah okay it may not be true he tries to avoid civilian casualties but from what I can tell it is true he wants to keep them as low as possible, the reason might be pragmatic but the fact he is holding what he does back that much, that seems concerning to me.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
Leaning keep now with those points, I'm also in favor of a rewrite.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wait, so what again makes Diavolo different than, say, Darth Bane?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I didn't say that Diavolo hates killing civilians, but more that he usually tries to avoid it whenever he can and only does so when he needs to. He only killed the fortune teller to protect his identity, drank the kid's blood because he was dying from anemia. There may be a few kills that aren't justifiable this way, but like I said, these pale in comparison to other villains.
Caesar
Diavolo doesn't even want to keep civilian casualties in that scenario low, tbh...Diavolo's exact quote:
He doesn't say, at any point, "I want to avoid civilian casualties." He points out Rome is going to be devastated...then says nothing more except to hone in on wanting to keep Trish and Bucciarati's knowledge safe from the two, and even has an aside to point out that he kept them around precisely because of how "reliable" their powers are. He's used them in the past to butcher Sorbet and Gelato, and he's using them again with no regard for civilian casualties.
Edited by Ravok on Dec 17th 2022 at 7:37:52 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I’m going to mention Bane also quite literally lambasts himself internally for even thinking of committing a murder for anything but a pragmatic purpose, I don’t see it as a justifiable comparison to a vile coward who corrupts and murders children, burned his hometown to the ground and as Rav pointed out, openly acknowledges Rome will be devastated. I’m worried he’s getting undersold here and I’m not losing strength to my keep stance.
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
Abstain on Diavolo as I have no experience with Jojo or deeper knowledge of it than "You thought this would be a punchline, but it was me, Dio!"
That aside, when it comes to rewrites all I'll say is that I have no attachment to preserving existing entries for any trope on the site if the info they're discussing is irrelevant to the trope, incorrect or just grammatically wrong and the original entry was all three of those to varying degrees. So to me there was no reason not to just throw it out and start from scratch. Hell, if I wrote a bad entry for a trope and someone heavily rewrote it, I'd be fine with that as long as they did a better job.
Either way, I'm going to bed now since it's quarter to four in the morning and I probably need to switch off. Nighty all.
Edited by MinisterOfSinister on Dec 17th 2022 at 3:46:18 PM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Diavolo's issue is only Pragmatic Villainy, he's a deeply insecure paranoid that uses his power and secrecy to avoid facing his own mortality.
He is obsessed with that at genuinely self destructive levels, seeing the criminal underworld as the best place to fulfill both his Control Freak fantasies AND his desire for complete anonymous status.
Cioccolata is defitely a case of someone who is so bloodthirsty and sadistic that even he feels disgust towards him...and because of that, he considers Cioccolata to be a grand tool. Its pretty much a case of a character that openly avoids potential redeeming trait, Diavolo felt disgust toward Cioccolata...and because of that, he decided to hire him as part of his elite forces.
Watch me destroying my country
Showtime!
Keep Diavolo
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
My issue is that even if we say that his redeeming qualities have mitigating factors, in the end he still feels at least a bit less evil than the likes of Dio, Angelo, and Cioccolata. One of the requirements of a CM is exceptionalism, and in terms of sheer malevolent intent, there are characters who have him beat.
There's also the issue that while he abandoned his lover Donatella, he did love her and never silenced or tried to kill her.
Moreover, he does send Doppio to rein in Cioccolata. This isn't like Mumm-Ra releasing the worst people imaginable either and then letting them have completely free rein.