Misused: Simple Staff

I don't understand why the option to disambig is getting so many downvotes when no strong argument for keeping the current definition has been made.

A lot of people want to preserve the trope + aren't comfortable voting disambiguating without a concrete split plan for the examples that aren't "Bob uses a staff to fight" or covered by existing tropes.

If we go for rename, I don't think I'll pay much attention to the thread as we would be going the opposite direction with cleaning up the weapon tropes. But like I said before, we can take this back to TRS after some time has passed and there's still issues surrounding the trope that can't be fixed with cleanup.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 6th 2022 at 3:35:35 PM

Given what Simple Staff is supposed to be (mentioned by another troper in this post), I think we're missing the broader trope, which would be Melee Staff. Then, Simple Staff could be a sub-trope renamed to something like Simple Savants Staff, to make it clear that this is about how a simple, straightforward Melee Staff reflects the wielder as being a learned, wise, monastic, or similar character type.

That way, many mages who use their Magic Staff for combat, but who don't necessarily fit the Simple Savants Staff characterisation can go under Melee Staff instead. Melee Staff could also pick up the complicated staff combinations that also might not be in the hands of a characterisation that fits Simple Savants Staff, and other types of staff users who use staffs for reasons other than the savant characterisation (such as pacifists, or the old characterisation of women as using polearms or ranged weapons to create a sense of distance, or martial artists who might one day aspire to be a savant, or may never have anything to do with savant troping).

So, I favour a rename as opposed to a disambig... but with this caveat.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 6th 2022 at 5:06:56 AM

I don't think that using a staff in melee combat is inherently tropeworthy, certainly no more than the old definition of Knife Nut was before it got split, so we don't need a supertrope to catch every single example. It's okay if some examples end up having to be deleted wholesale.

Simple Staff is already a broad trope. Yes, the description lists multiple associations with the trope but the trope is still "using a staff as a melee weapon" to its core and that's how it's being used.

Honestly, "Simple Staff" kinda sounds like it's characterizing the wielder as humble and straightforward.

Are there already examples that feature a characterization aspect, rather than simply focusing on the use of a staff?

Going by the wick check , the only consistent character type I can see for Simple Staff are Martial Artists (which why I thought it could be split off). Everything else appears to be "staff as a melee weapon" or ZCE when the trope isn't being misused for Magic Staff. I found a lot of martial arts examples by skimming the on page examples as well but I don't feel like sorting through all of them right now. Maybe tomorrow.

Created Sandbox.Simple Staff for example sorting and other possible fixes for now

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 6th 2022 at 11:13:01 AM

Maybe we could run another crowner for whether to restrict examples to martial artists before deciding on a name.

Martial Arts Staff, Martial Artist Staff, or Martial Artists Staff (custom titled to Martial Artist's Staff) might work as names if we go that route.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 7th 2022 at 3:30:11 AM

I think we have to crown "restrict to martial artists using staff as a weapon" or name suggestions would be meaningless at this stage.

That's what I suggested earlier although I wasn't entirely about it. If we end up redefining Simple Staff, we will probably have to turn into a disambiguation, which is something a lot of people don't want.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 7th 2022 at 4:38:09 AM

We can redefine, rename, and turn the old page into a disambig between staff tropes (I know the last one was already downvoted, but in case the trope gets moved it may be worth reconsidering).

Edited by Amonimus on Jul 7th 2022 at 11:39:35 AM

I think we can do that, since the disambiguation option was for only disambiguating and would have involved stripping it of its trope status instead of moving it to a new name and/or redefining it. Turning the old name of a renamed trope into a disambiguation page is different from turning a page into a disambiguation page while completely removing the old contents.

I gave the crowner two extra days to give the disambiguation option enough time since it was added after the rename option, but letting the crowner run two more days might not have been necessary since that option got downvoted.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 7th 2022 at 4:48:13 AM

Just to be clear as I missed the previous crowner: were the options between "rename" and "disambig"? Was redefine included in the rename or made it's own separate option?

From the convo it seems like a redefine was discussed several times, but from what i can glean about the crowner, it's not clear it was an option.

Unless the trope is wildly under/misused, tropers are regularly opposed to getting rid of it even if they are causing problems. Thus rename > disambig. A redefine, I've found, is an acceptable middle ground so long as clear paths for the redefine are presented.

It wasn't an option on the first crowner. Which was just a rename crowner before disambig was added a day later. We are having a second crowner for redefining.

I assume my Staff Club name suggestion was vetoed because it's too witty with its multiple double meanings?

I guess it just seems odd to vote for a rename before a vote for a redefine (or not do them simultaneously) since it's not fully clear what the name should reflect if the definition will change?

Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 9th 2022 at 9:03:20 AM

On technicality, is the defenition about a weapon or about a weapon user?

Kind of both the the user and how it's used, since it's used for martial arts by martial artists. The part about the type of staff is a rule of thumb for telling if it's a martial arts staff and not a different kind of staff (it does say it isn't universal, but is still common).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 9th 2022 at 8:14:25 AM

A bō staff is what's almost always used. I don't think the type of staff matters that much of the proposed trope is martial artists use staves as their weapon of choice (when they choose to use a weapon of some sort).

EDIT: We can also mention quarterstaffs in as they were also used for martial arts as the description notes.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 9th 2022 at 9:26:57 AM

Posting this comment to make public that I voted in favor of having the trope redefined to cover only staves used for martial arts.

I typically imagine a 2-meter long cylinder, but anything that is long, straight, and both sides can be used for hitting works for me, though anything that isn't explicitly a Bo staff may be a case of Improvised Weapon.

I feel like we should keep the details of the types of staff brief in the description, since this is more about how the staff is used instead of what kind of staff is used, and we can use an Analysis page to go into further detail about the various staves used for martial arts.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 9th 2022 at 10:20:32 AM