Wiki and Forum Policy - General Discussion

Personally, even if no action is taken now, what I don't want is to have to do this entire process again if nothing changes.

What counts as a case in this scenario? Is Fighteer's behavior all one case, or is every time it's brought up again a new case?

If the question raised is "why is one person allowed to get away with suspension-worthy behavior because they're a mod", a response of "well, some of you have been suspended for suspension-worthy behavior" is not relevant and does not answer the question, I think.

I do appreciate the mods and all the hard work they do, and I know it's a thankless job, but if after twelve years of objectionable behavior the only punishment for a mod with objectionable behavior is voluntary recusal from OTC and a semi-voluntary break, I don't have a lot of faith in the team's ability to moderate itself.

I've been following this thread for the past few days without commenting. The primary reason why I haven't commented has been the scale of hostility. For the most part, LSBK and WarJay have been articulating anything I would have said anyway (not that they had any idea of that), but I just want to say this:

Silas's post here and here sums up my current thoughts and I want to be clear that what I say next comes from experience, having forum moderator history of my own. I am sympathetic to the position the mods are in right now, but I also agree with some of the concerns being raised. I do think the following observation needs to be made:

In my experience, it's not possible for mods to escape their mod status while wearing their "ordinary troper" clothes. Unfortunately, there are some jobs and roles in life where your public behaviour in your personal time will still reflect on the job you do the rest of the time, bringing with it a price of having to moderate yourself in your off-time in ways others don't. Forum moderation is one such role. It's not a fun price to pay at all, especially when your moderator role is only voluntary, but it is an inescapable one.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 26th 2022 at 8:48:54 PM

I must confess that, while I appreciate Fighteer "choosing" to take a vacation, I cannot help but feel that we are examining a case that has received no real consequences and, it seems, will receive none in the future. Not to mention that the attitude here has been— rather than any accountability— to accuse the people bringing up grievances and asking for excuses of being just as bad, which I will note they have been disciplined for.

To define this "final response" as lackluster is an understatement.

It's really nice to know that folks can make changes to their behavior, but the mod staff still has an eternal tool to hold over their heads to deflect from accusations on their own behavior.

Okay, so I am not the biggest fan either of how the mods choose to respond to this either but I knew that this was probably coming.

I see that the mods probably don't really have much of a choice. They can't do anything to Fighteer's mod status due to the way TV Tropes is structured. Bringing in the admins to do it is going to be rather hard. I know a lot of people here want that to happen but I can understand why the mods are hesitant to do anything as it isn't an easy choice for them to make.

I have been in this situation myself, getting rid of a mod no matter how much the community wants is always not going to be an easy call as it will reduce the already low staff the place has and may end up negatively effectively the community in the long run. I do understand the temptation to want to at least try and keep a mod on who has been doing a lot of good work and first wanting to try and sort out their behavior and only going to the nuclear option when they feel like they have no other choice.

Fighteer stated he would abide by their decision. That decision was entirely their own. The closing ranks, tu quoque, finger pointing? That's the response they wanted to give and the one they did.

Some questions I don't think have been officially answered:

1) How long is Fighteer's break? Do the mods have an idea and would they ask Fighteer to stay gone if he came back too early?

2) Is Fighteer still a mod? Different posters seem to have assumed different things.

Edited by dcutter2 on Dec 26th 2022 at 7:38:43 PM

And the demand that he take a vacation.

There is no precedent for us, as a collective, demanding anything like that let alone asking the admins to kick one of our colleagues out. For example, I have zero idea how that well would go with the admins (remember, if the admins don't agree, it can't be done).

Then I believe it is time to establish a precedent. Is there precedent for a mod being a dick?

Mod voice post off, since I am not speaking on behalf of the rest of the team.

I personally (again, personally) see this as a "first strike/punishment". While most suspensions are tropers who do 1-2 blatant errors and are swiftly punished for it, there are tropers who are longstanding lowkey thorns in the site's side but don't technically do anything worth punishment until there's a straw that breaks the camel's back. Just as we give most of those tropers (both types) the opportunity to modify behavior and enact harsher punishments if they offend again, I don't think offering Fighteer a chance to reform his behavior is the end of the world.

I will agree, again not as a mod, that it would have been most opportune to do it during the fiasco with Nombre, when this behavior first came to a head. But that's in the past. I was not the type of troper to pay attention to wiki moderation then let alone a mod then, and I cannot demand that the moderation team retroactively include that in the punishment. It is anyway impossible to go back in time and do it then.

We have already said we will consider tougher penalties if the behavior occurs. That may or may not include demodding (like I said, I am not speaking on behalf of the mod team so please do not consider this an 'offer', and even if we get to that point, such an action is contingent on admin action — it won't be an 'off switch' we can trigger). Until such an occasion happens, however, I am in favor of giving Fighteer the grace and opportunity to let the issues being voiced sink in.

So? There's only one way to find out.

"Oh it would be difficult" is just dodging responsibility and effectively confirming there is no oversight or accountability for mods. That they are above rules and standards of behaviour.

Edited by dcutter2 on Dec 26th 2022 at 7:43:53 PM

That's a dodge. Fighteer said he'd accept your decision. If your decision was "he should resign," presumably he'd ask the admins to demote him, like any other mod who's resigned.

I agree with others here, it cannot hurt to ask the mods admins, even if it would take awhile. And as others have stated if the decision was "you should resign" then he would have to ask for the admins to remove his privileges.

Yes.

Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 26th 2022 at 2:52:01 PM

You mean the admins?

To reiterate what feels like the most obvious question: if there is no improvement, or things go back to the previous state some six months from now or the like, do we have reason to expect that it won't come down to users launching a many day long multi-page discussion?

Fighteer is currently a Mod. He just is not physically visiting this site.

That is ridiculous and I strongly doubt you would be extending this to any other

What you're doing is deflection. "Oh, there are other tropers who are a problem, but they don't technically do anything..."

Are these people moderators? Have they been acting as they have for a decade? Fighteer's behavior's been on display. It's come up before. It partially led to another mod's resignation.

This lack of any concern feels insulting, particularly when it came with a tu quoque. Why is he being allowed to modify his behavior in a position of authority?

Also a deflection. This just tells us the moderation team has failed again and again to protect the community and prioritized shielding an abusive bully over them. As they are doing so again right now.

Willbyr straight up posted "it's not remotely true, we ARE discussing it." Except it is. And multiple mods now were mods then. No action was taken, multiple times. Those same mods, and the newer mods apparently think nothing beyond a little break should be done. So, yeah, it feels like after everyone in the community who spoke up, the response is "we're not gonna do much. We can't promise we'll do more. But some of you suck, so it's fair."

What reason do we have to believe you after the last response was nothing more than condescension and scorn to us? It's clear the moderation team sees very little wrong with Fighteer.

So he is shielded. The least possible amount you could possibly do.

There feels like no safety whatsoever in this community. Every response the mods make results in worse and worse implications. After attempting to do the bare minimum about, again, an abusive bully, we hear so much on:

"We didn't notice it."

"It's not that bad."

"YOU'RE all bad, too."

"He deserves another chance, doesn't he?"

"We can't promise anything."

It's just a litany of excuses for the mods to shield one of their own. Because asking for some accountability of "hey, are we safe if a mod doesn't see much wrong with holocaust denial an then gives weak deflections when challenged on it" in 2020, shortly before coming a mod leads to "this is cancel culture" as an official response.

I am so disappointed with all of this. Not least of which when people make good faith efforts to reform and have that trotted out as an excuse to shield a virulent bigoted bully in their midst. What many of us are saying is this an insufficient tap on the wrist.

It's not a punishment, it's a break. It's come up before and Fighteer refuses to change ever. He shows almost no contrition whatsoever even during this, and we're expected to believe the best? It feels like nothing more than what I worried: that the official response would be "we're not doing anything and you have to live with him." And unfortunately, this turned out to be pretty close.

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 26th 2022 at 11:56:11 AM

Septimus said there is no precedent about disciplinary action for mods. Would it be correct to interpret this as 'since there have been no consequences for Fighteer, there will never be consequences for Fighteer?'

It is somewhat comical to treat this as a "first strike" when the point of the dossier users were assembling on Fighteer's behavior (that got basically equated to a cancel culture boogeyman in that questionable final note post) was exactly to demonstrate that the behavior is long-standing and a lot of it has been discussed in this very thread, it just caused no punishment. It's Fighteer's "first strike" only in the sense the moderation consistently ignored all others up to this point.

That's really the heck of it, isn't it?

Mods: "This is a first strike."

Also Mods: Ignore his actions for years until it becomes impossible to do so

It's only a "first strike" because he can't be effectively shielded any further.

@Fighteer, I know you aren't reading this, but please make it easy for everyone, including the rest of the mod team, and resign on your on volition.

Edited by minseok42 on Dec 26th 2022 at 12:57:45 PM

Ok, I said multiple times in my post to treat it as my 2c and not a mod statement. Please do not misconstrue it as such.

Separate because (not posting because I would rather this not turn into a 1v1) I came into this discussion with an outsider POV. I was not on the wiki the last 4 days and backread. It so happened that my views after the fact aligned with what ended up happening.

Edited by Synchronicity on Dec 26th 2022 at 2:05:56 PM

But? You are a mod, weighing in on an issue involving moderation, based on conversations we're not privvy to. After you acting as an official mod, gave a frankly lacking statement that seemed to just accuse us of being hypocrites.

How can we sepsrate your personal 2c when that position is apparently the official statement of the mod team? Delivered by you just a short time ago today?

And no offense, Synchro, because I agree you do good work. But when your position on this is to offer more empathy and warmth to Fighteer than the people Fighteer has hurt and when your official statement is this poorly received?

Because (not posting because I would rather this not turn into a 1v1) I came into this discussion with an outsider POV. It so happened that my views after the fact aligned with what ended up happening.

You're a moderator, delivering official responses. How can your position be an "outsider" when you're weighing in with the rest of the mod staff?

Your views just happened to align with shielding a toxic, abusive bully with the rest of the mod staff? That's not very comforting for trust in the moderators going forward.

You gave the official response and the response you specifically yourself typed out and sent was "nothing else is happening, and some of you all are just venal hypocrites who have no right to say it." It's hard to believe you were just an outsider in the conversation just weighing in like that. If you weren't involved in the conversation and were "backreading," why were you giving the response as opposed to mods who were weighing in? And why are you divesting yourself from it as a mod when your position was the onje officially offered?

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 26th 2022 at 12:08:54 PM

IMO it makes more sense to treat the incident with Nombre as the first strike, because while it definitely wasn't the first conflict users have had with Fighteer over his poor behavior, it was the first I recall to have people come together to such a large scale to discuss what was seen as a sitewide problem as opposed to within a topic thread, and because it too ended with an informal promise that Fighteer would try to do better, which it's since become clear he failed to live up to. It's also part of the reason this thread exists in the first place and is so active so it clearly had a long-term impact on how we now conduct our behavior in the forums.

I really don't want to believe that there's a conscious effort to shield Fighteer, but the most charitable reason I'm willing to give the mods as to why they didn't take formal action to discipline him then was that the moderation team had been dealing with serious logistics issues at the time. There were barely any active mods and one of the few there were had just been pushed out by Fighteer, who has since sworn up and down up until just a week ago that he had absolutely nothing to do with it, which a convo I had with said mod literally hours after said announcement shows is not true at best and a willful lie at worst.

What Nombre said is info I had been quietly sitting on for two to three years now out of my own mistaken hope that Fighteer would stick to his word to do better.

We have more mods now, so that excuse no longer persists. This might be the first actionable offense that many of the newer mods can take part in, but the primary reason they're even here is because Fighteer essentially forced one of their predecessors out, necessitating their joining the team. Thus it's not really fair to treat this as a first offense.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 26th 2022 at 3:16:41 PM