Unclear Description: Randomized Damage Attack

Randomized Damage Attack...

The description sounds like the trope's only for attacks with "particularly wide" swings in damage, like 50% or so, instead of 10%...

But exactly what "particularly wide" is, is unclear.

Gameplay Randomization redefined it as generalized random damage.

So we could go with that, or make it any attack whose description states its randomness?

Edited by Malady on Mar 22nd 2019 at 6:09:37 AM

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Opening.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Bump. So, anyone have an opinion on how to handle RDA's possible definitions overlapping with other tropes?

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I think removing "For games like these, only examples where an attack has a particularly wide range of damage values should be listed here." would suffice.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

- So making it Exactly What It Says on the Tin.

OK!

Edited by Malady on Jun 11th 2019 at 10:09:28 AM

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I agree. I think that part goes against Tropes Are Flexible by excluding otherwise valid examples that are still highly randomized, but don't also don't cover that large of a range.

I think the original intention behind that part was to clarify the exclusion of standard attacks because of stat-related randomness in games like RPGs or games with RPG Elements, as mentioned in the same paragraph, but I think it ended up going too far by excluding attacks that have a stronger RNG-based factor than standard attacks, but don't have a range of something like game-breaking to doing one HP worth of damage. (I might be exaggerating a bit regarding what it ended up sounding like it's saying, but my main point is the part about Tropes Are Flexible.)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 11th 2019 at 12:43:29 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

i.e. We need some way to formulate the distinction that "Every attack in Pokémon because the attack formula includes a random component" is not the trope, but "Psybeam in Pokémon has a randomized power level" is acceptable.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

Why is it Not An Example?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That's a very good question, and answering it will prove critical to this thread.

My first instinct: because the randomization isn't part of the attack, it's part of the damage formula.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

- Hmm... Every attack / effect having the same amount of variability, seems tropable to me...

And then rename this to Notably Randomized Attack Damage or some snowclone of that TLP idea, so the connection is clear?

Then aversion of that trope would be Fixed Value Effect TLP or Fixed Damage Attack, unless there's enough examples for a separate "Every attack does a set amount of damage" possible trope?

Edited by Malady on Jun 13th 2019 at 6:43:36 AM

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But that's what the description says the trope is focused on; the damage formula.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The randomization in this case is for a damage formula that is directly tied to the attack itself. Attacks that aren't considered to count are ones that are based solely on the game's standard built-in damage formula, which is a standard feature of RPGs and adds a degree of randomness to attacks that are otherwise mostly stat-based.

To go back on the Pokémon example of Psywave (I think that was meant instead of Psybeam, which uses the games' standard damage formula instead of having a unique formula), it's based on the user's level instead of other stats. It inputs the user's level into a formula and does a random amount of damage based on the formula's result.

In the original Pokémon games, Psywave's damage range isn't extremely wide (the formula changed in later games). The damage dealt is between 1x to 1.5x the user's level in those games (the damage output can potentially be less than the user's level in later games, even going down to 1 HP at times).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2019 at 10:28:15 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

'Wider than the average damage range' then? Games will almost always state that this is the case with weapons or X weapon differentiates itself from others via this.

Take FFXII

The Axes's damage formula is

DMG=[Attack Power∗Random(0 ~ 1.111)−Defense]∗[1+Strength∗(Lv+Vitality)/128]

The Sword's formula is

DMG=[Attack Power∗Random(1 ~ 1.125)−Defense]∗[1+Strength∗(Lv+Strength)/25

That random modifier on the Axe can be between 0 and 1.111, compare the sword which has a random modifier of 1 to 1.125. Which means the axes have a HUGE range when they swing while the sword is more consistent.

This is what I need explained to me. I don't understand what this is saying.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Personally, I find it easiest to explain as gameplay mechanic versus character stats.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

Almost all games which have a numbered damage component beyond the single digits have some kind of random damage component, it’s a remnant of RPG’s origins being based on Dungeons And Dragons.

It’s a straight up universal trope to the point where exceptions are more noticeable than almost every other rpg or rpg based mechanic game in existence. The cases where it’s not there are usually influenced by other genres.

However most games the damage range isn’t actually that big, it’s probably done nowadays cause always seeing the exact same number pop up every time.

But occasionally they stick in an attack, a weapon, class of weapon, or character with a wide damage range...to the point where using it is basically gambling every single hit. THAT is this trope. The low accuracy high damage/crit chance trope that I forget the name of is heavily related to this but not quite the same.

The axe in FFXII for example might have 1 swing do 80 damage while another might do 8000 damage. Every swing is a gamble, roll that D-10000 and find out.

Edited by Memers on Jun 14th 2019 at 11:20:07 AM

Again, I don't see why removing "For games like these, only examples where an attack has a particularly wide range of damage values should be listed here." would cause problems. Most weapons in Dungeons & Dragons use a single die of randomization, from the 1d4 of the dagger to the 1d12 of the greataxe. I don't understand why this should be excluded from the page.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

It's the same reason why only notable cases are listed for Omnipresent Tropes. If we were to list every RPG that had a randomized damage mechanic, the list would be gigantic.

Like Big Bad?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Well Big Bad is quite a different situation, its something that actually matters to the story and affects things.

Attacking for 9004 instead of a 9007 does not matter. And the example list would be just a list of works, its impossible to actually work out an example list.

Extreme fluctuation mechanics such as attacking between 80 and 80000 however that is a thing and can be described in each work. As well as Static Damage Attacks is also a notable mechanic in RPGs which defy the norm as you can math it out to exactly how many hits you need.

Edited by Memers on Jun 23rd 2019 at 6:08:18 AM

It is called Fixed Damage Attack, not Static Damage Attacks.

Tropes are not "this happens". Someone decided to use a random variable instead of a fixed damage. Someone coded ran(9004,9007) instead of ran(1,10000). Why advocate that "d4 doesn't affect things" when it isn't just a choice between Fixed and Random? The creator chose d4 instead of d10 or d10000.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I wonder if we'll need a split, with Randomized Damage and Randomized Damage Attack.

Also, why are you using small text? It looks like you're constantly whispering all the time.

Because a little bit of randomness has been used in RP Gs since the start of RP Gs. Every almost every single RPG that has an actual damage stat uses it.

The examples list would literally be the example list of 'Role-Playing Game' (which is divided into subgeneres as indexes) except for a couple. No way to write it up it would just be a list of RPG works.

You could write a universal trope stub that has no examples because but that would still be a stub. This is more universal than even Big Bad cause you can have works without a Big Bad but RP Gs without random damage are in the single digits, those are usually influenced by other Genres, and as you linked they already have a trope.

That is not added to the fact that it doesn't matter, the extremely small damage range these games use means basically nothing. It isnt like a crit which does 1.5x or 2x damage, these are a different of +/- 2~5%. Slightly Randomized Damage is not a 'Trope'.

Edited by Memers on Jun 23rd 2019 at 6:44:31 AM

It's that, if every attack in a game has slightly randomized damage, then it's not "an attack that deals randomized damage", it's "a game where attacks deal randomized damage". They're different tropes, and you can have either without the other.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.