RWBY Spoilers Thread

It's something I've noticed in stories where there's a big catastrophe that requires the US to draw up the list of people who will be saved in the bunker with the US President — and it's always these special and powerful people, the leading lights in their fields.

Academic fields, that is. You don't see them saving farmers who are experts in growing relevant crops or maintaining various different livestock species. You don't see them saving cleaners and janitors. You see doctors and surgeons on the list... but no nurses, auxilieries, paramedics or porters.

Sometimes, I've seen stories get as far as saving one or two top chefs... but no mention of saving the knowledge of producing food, always raising the Fridge question: what are they going to cook with? When it does get mentioned, that's where the academic leading lights come in: zoologists, ecologists, botanists, geologists — or perhaps one of the characters pottered around in a garden or allotment — to hand wave the problem.

It was one of the things I jumped on with Ironwood's argument: Mantle is so out of sight for Atlesians — even at its current limited height — that they have lost all understanding of their connection with Mantle. They have lost the knowledge of just how much they depend on Mantle for the lifestyle they're accustomed to. Everything Ironwood cites as being a reason for why Atlas can survive high in the atmosphere is technology-based. Technology in Remnant is Dust-dependent. His shields will run out of Dust — and shield technology is the rarest Dust, as well (Hard Light). But even without shields, their technology will require constant Dust use: their environmental regulators, their computers, their heating grid, their luxuries all of it comes from the Dust Mantle citizens are mining for them.

It's also one of the criticisms I had about how the heroes were handling Ironwood's arguments. They weren't pointing out the big flaws in his plan (even with a stockpile, that Dust will run without Mantle to supply it — and, since it was a last minute decision, there isn't going to be anything beyond whatever the normal stockpiling procedures already were). They instead went for arguments that introduced a brand new set of problems specific to their side of the argument.

I actually don't mind the fact that the kids were missing the true flaws in Ironwood's plans because they're kids... if any of the kids is likely to think about farming issues, it's probably going to be Oscar. Blake might be able to think of the mining issue through her knowledge of Ilia's back story. I'm in two minds as to whether Weiss would (I think we could make an argument in either direction for her). But, in reality, these aren't issues that fall within the experience and training of teenagers who have had their combat training cut short and been promoted to licenced Huntsmen incredibly early.

Of course, the other big issue with Ironwood's plan is that they don't actually know for certain if it is possible to outfly the Grimm — it was always a theory. He keeps falling back on the claim that Oz said it was possible, and it was Oz's original plan but he didn't take it far enough, that he'll complete the plan that Oz didn't have the guts to finish.

They don't even know for certain that the Staff can provide unlimited energy — that was just a theory, too.

So, he was always abandoning Mantle for a theoretical plan, not a guaranteed one. Even before we get to the discussion of whether Salem can just alter any limits current Grimm may have, there's the question of whether Ironwood even understands what Oz's original idea really was. All the signs are that he doesn't understand what that was and has misinterpreted both Oz's words and intentions.

I've mentioned before what I think Oz's issues might be. And, I do think that Ironwood will eventually get his wish to hear what Oz thinks of his plan — and it won't be what he so desperately wanted to hear.

We do know that Atlesians heard Robyn and Ironwood's speech because she addressed both Atlas and Mantle. So, that would explain why Atlesian reporters are so interested in what's going on with Mantle's evacuations — the only context they've had is the Robyn/Ironwood joint speech. Everything else has just happened to and around them without explanation or context.

As you say, it's probably not going to go well if people learn more because the idea of telling the world about Salem has a giant elephant in the room: it is one thing to tell the world that there is a dark queen controlling the Grimm and trying to turn humanity against itself, but if people unite against this common foe they can overcome it. It is a very different kettle of fish if you then throw in the truthbomb 'Oh, by the way, she's immortal and unkillable. We can unite and win this particular fight, but she will come back one day and then people will have to do it all over again.'

The Menagerie storyline introduced us to the idea of how people lose the will to keep fighting if they've been doing it too long and see no end in sight. Menagerie was full of Faunus who had given up and just wanted out.

Ozma himself has all the hallmarks of someone who has reached the end of his tether and is just fighting on automatic these days. Salem herself may be in the same boat (and, deep down, I do expect her to be exhausted by it all, too, hence her scream of frustration when she found out Oz had already returned).

It's not enough to tell the world to unite against a dark queen and then not tell them she's immortal and unkillable. I think this is the bit the heroes don't quite get: they think it's as simple as telling the world Salem exists, and don't understand or agree with Oz keeping it secret; what they don't realise is that Oz isn't thinking in terms of telling people Salem exists, he's thinking in terms of telling people Salem can't be killed. Once people know she exists, it becomes much harder to hide the fact she can't be killed. It's easier to hide her existence that to try and explain that the reason you keep fighting holding patterns against her instead of going for the kill is because there is no kill possible.

People don't want endless wars. They want something they can do today and move on from tomorrow. The idea of being asked to enter a war that has no end is horrific to most people.

I believe that's why Oscar told Ironwood that Ozpin was keeping this secret to protect hope. Ozpin has never been afraid of how people will react to Salem's existence. He's been afraid of how people will react to her immortality. The reason he keeps her existence secret is to avoid the immortality issue.

Within the heroes' group, the only person who seems to have come close to considering what you actually do about the elephant once you've pointed it out to people is Ren — and he seems very worried about it whereas the rest of the group don't seem to be thinking that far ahead yet. Yes, Ruby said she might be unkillable but doesn't make her impossible to defeat, but all she's proposing is doing what Oz has been doing all along; she thinks the Relic told her that, but that's what Oz keeps doing — fighting, winning, waiting for the next fight, and so on. That's what Ironwood called 'Oz has kept her at bay'. Keeping someone at bay is the outcome for someone who can win the fight but can't win the war. So, all Ruby really said to Salem was she was going to kick the Salem can down the road for someone else to fight when she next rises up.

And, while Oz has clearly been able to do that, Salem indicates that no-one else has been able to do more — specifically, Summer.

So, as long as all Ruby is proposing is to do what Oz has already been doing (fight to defeat her current plan even though it won't kill her or stop her coming up with new plans in the future), then she's not giving Salem anything to truly worry about.

To repeat something Ruby once said to Weiss: [Ruby's] going to have to do a lot better than that.

May mentioned Sector 3 as well. Also, in Volume 7, the fight between Robyn, Qrow, Clover and Tyrian occurred in Sector 17.

Well, the public wasn't told Salem is immortal. Robyn doesn't know that either.

Also, think about how Ironwood did describe her. He referred to Salem as 'it' initially. He does switch to 'she' as he continues talking, but he initially describes her almost like a natural phenomenon, something that exists but isn't alive, isn't human: an evil force that can be countered the way they fight the Grimm — by controlling negative feelings and uniting for the common good.

The public is therefore not going to have a clear idea of what Salem even is, so it's much easier for an ill-informed public to focus on what they do know — the Grimm.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 24th 2020 at 10:26:05 AM

I'm pretty sure what Ruby was meant to be getting at is that even if they can't kill her, they can find a way to neutralise her.

Trap her, imprison her, launch her into space Kars style, have Ruby user her semblance on her and leave her half way, ect.

Perhaps one day they might get to that point, but that wasn't Ruby's reference during the actual scene. She made her statement on the basis of what she'd seen in Jinn's vision, which didn't include the kinds of scenarios you're describing (especially considering she only learned about her Semblance in this episode).

Ruby's references are quite limited at the moment, including the scope of what she's looking at in terms of solving problems and saving lives. Obviously, she's going to figure out a solution eventually because she's the hero. She's not there yet, however.

Getting into space isn't possible right now for Remnant. I can't comment on the scenario you have in mind, however, as I have no idea what 'Kars style' means.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 24th 2020 at 11:10:15 AM

Yeah, I'm waiting for someone to finally pause and realize Fate Worse than Death is a trope for a reason. And there are plenty of things that could potentially neutralize Salem even without killing her.

The problem is that Ironwood is currently locked into such a panic mode, that it hasn't even occurred to him to think about that. They need to think outside the box, and consider that.

Jinn's vision will probably lead to that eventually, once people have a moment to breathe. She can't be killed, but she feels pain and she can be harmed. And though Ironwood wonders if she still feels fear, we've seen that clearly she does.

@Wyld

In Jojos bizzare adventure, Kars was launched into space before freezing, and 'eventually stopped thinking'.

It wasn't done with shuttles or anything either, You see, Kars acidentually punched a crystal, it made it so the rocky floor they were on was launched into the atmosphere by the Pressure.

There's context to that I can't list do to memory issues, but it really dosent make that much more sense in context either, the show basically admits its an Ass Pull.

Edited by Snoketrope on Nov 24th 2020 at 3:30:11 AM

Yes, I think it's why a lot of us were speculating that she'd been magically bound to her location — which meant she had to bring people to her. (And then found a way to circumvent the binding by creating the giant flying sperm whaleship with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers to effectively transport her 'location' with her).

Even if that specific idea was wrong, it stems from the idea that the obvious solution to an immortal trouble-maker is to trap them in a single location from which they cannot cause any more trouble.

That's also a solution if they want to finish the story by ending the Salem threat without the gods returning. It means Ozma finally has a chance to work on guiding humanity to harmony now that Salem is out of the way. That's if they don't want to go the route of Salem and Ozma waltzing off to the afterlife to RIP while Remnant gets on with the business of living, of course.

Okay, I just found a YouTube video of the scene.

I don't think that'll be applicable to this show. Not being able to reach space appears to be a plot-point of some kind, one that's alluded to again in the Fairy Tales book by stating the gods found that even they could no longer escape Remnant because they'd poured too much of their essence into its creation and so are now bound to it.

Now, whether or not that specific scenario is accurate, it almost certainly has a kernel of truth because the show has already hinted that there's something important about why Dust-based technology cannot reach space (and the setting also follows the rule of Equivalent Exchange).

Salem's immortality curse also seems to be bound to Remnant: 'for as long as this world turns, you shall walk the face of it'. (Which is why I think her secret plot is to summon the gods to Remnant so that they can see humanity at its worst and therefore destroy the planet and everything on it — in the hope that she can Exact Words her curse by stopping the world from turning.)

Ignoring my theory about Salem's motives, I don't think this setting is going to have an 'enter space' aspect to it beyond the Atlas Arc's Amity/Atlas plans, which were about getting as high into the atmosphere as possible rather than getting into space (they were aiming to make Amity almost a satelite rather than an actual satellite).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 24th 2020 at 11:40:28 AM

Found it

Edited by RebelFalcon on Nov 24th 2020 at 6:44:28 AM

Yeah when ren actually though on how to defeat salem nora just brush it off, which is a sign that while ruby might know she can defeat salem, they dont know how or have any sense of how to acomplish, she is riding in notions of good people beaten bad people, she is still thinking in terms of strenght.

"Ozma himself has all the hallmarks of someone who has reached the end of his tether and is just fighting on automatic these days. Salem herself may be in the same boat (and, deep down, I do expect her to be exhausted by it all, too, hence her scream of frustration when she found out Oz had already returned). "

Its also the fact that Ozpin is still there and is always being there, imagine blake and adam fighting over and over and over and over, not matter how much time they beat each other, they always return back.

Also for salem is kinda bitter: she did all to return him back to life and know she is stuck with him.

Hell is truly other people.

I didn't realise there was a meme circulating around the fandom that the Hound's performance deserves an Oscar.

This fandom really likes its memes.

If anything like that happened it would be Ruby petrifying Salem with her silver eyes. I really hope that isn't how they win because it's so obvious that Ozpin surely would've done it already.


@Rebel: I'm not sure what you're implying. The historical research linking dehumanization and radicalization to terrorism, democide, and atrocities is extremely robust. As for the rest, my point about trauma and abuse was that the people don't become cartoonishly evil because their father beat them as a child; abuse approximately doubles the probability of someone comitting a crime, but it's not even close to being causative. It's far more likely for a victim of abuse to harm themselves than someone else. On the same token, someone who does something heinous out of desperation doesn't suddenly become a moustache twirling villain. (*cough* Ironwood)

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 24th 2020 at 2:53:32 PM

I think they'll pull a Steven Universe and do Talking the Monster to Death on Salem. It's consistent with the theme of "There is no victory in strength".

Edited by Teamkirin5 on Nov 25th 2020 at 7:20:07 AM

And yet the only actually cartoonishly evil villain is Tyrian, and only in the sense he's Laughing Mad akin to the Joker.

I think they'll pull a Steven Universe and do Talking the Monster to Death on Salem.

Salem: “You can't just make everything better by singing some stupid song!”

To be fair I think Ruby will at the very least get Salem to "understand the value of life and death".

Not necessarily making Salem change her ways mind you, but at the very least striping her of her immortality.

And then as Salem cries and realized how her crimes have hurt many...

STAB!

Cinder uses her Grimm arm to succ the destructive energy from her and usurps her to be the final boss.

Actually, I think Salem will come after Cinder, in the sense that Cinder is the final physical threat the heroes have to fight. Hence, we'll get RWBY (and JNOR if you want) vs. Maiden Cinder going all out, complete with epic vocal song from Casey and Jeff. The heroes win, albeit barely, and they're in no shape to fight Salem afterwards (multiple broken Auras, exhaustion, a few injuries, even a damaged/broken weapon or two). Hence the use of Talking the Monster to Death.

Yeah, that's really what it hinges on. Figuring out what the Gods meant exactly by her Curse Escape Clause and how to make it happen. The lesson they want her to learn isn't really clear and it feels like a riddle, with solving it being vital to the conclusion of Salem and Ozma's story.

If the Hound was a person who would you like it to be?

The big ones I saw were Summer or Roman

I truthfully would prefer an OC. I don't know why but it just makes the world feel so much smaller if the Hound of all people, happens to be someone we knew already. I mean come on, Summer can't be the only special person that had fallen to Salem and the Hound being Roman is so out of nowhere that I would find that hard to believe.

Edited by Ohmknight on Nov 26th 2020 at 1:50:13 AM

I find it hard to believe the hound is anyone aside from just a sapient Grimm. Putting aside the fact that it would open a whole can of worms due to people being turned into Grimm being a long running Fandom-Specific Plot, the Hound when first seen in full is a complete quadraped with a very stout body, only to then become a biped after what sounds like breaking bones, create a voice box, and then grow wings. If there was a person in that thing, it would require their body being compressed to fit inside the first form, stretched out wide enough to make the second form, and somehow be able to keep wings tucked in there the entire time. It's easier to just think it's body is molecularly unstable enough to allow constant shapeshifting, hence the water like rippling on it's body. Cause if there was a body in that thing.... that would be a level of Body Horror on par with Junji Ito.

There's a video that breaks down why this theory is possible, even if it's a bit jumpy.

The idea is that the crew was inspired by Venom and the person pointed to similarities like the teeth, the arm whip, its ability to change on the fly, and even an unusual spot to place some teeth (the top of the head) which he concludes is where the "seams" are and that, when The Reveal happens, those seams will open..

So, the theory isn't without reason. That said, it's RWBY. It likes subverting expectations.

One Idea I had if the Hound was someone we knew, was that we'd also find out that Salem had done this to several other people.

Member all those Grimm arms we see in the Opening grab at Rubies arm after she falls into a Big pool of Darkness?

Also, I don't think the wings were tucked in there either way, I think what happned was just that it Created Wings.

EDIT:RWBY Discourse predictions

https://tsundere-bellwether.tumblr.com/post/635880820936228864/predictions-for-2021-rwby-discourse-ironwood-stans

Wich one are you guys getting on?

Edited by Snoketrope on Nov 26th 2020 at 1:37:31 AM

What kind of question is that?! Grimm are people, too, you know!

Oh god Cursed predictions of discourse. Which are probably completely accurate because Fandom is nothing if not a terribly predictable cesspool.

Also Fridge Horror from someone pointing out that if they don't manage to send out a message, Salem could very well just wipe the entire kingdom out without the rest of the world realizing because Atlas has been on lock-down.

I mean, that would fit. The crisis in Atlas is primarily of Ironwood's making because Salem played him like a fiddle and his fear drove him to make bad decisions and develop an unhealthy mindset, the word not getting out because of something Ironwood started would fit thematically.