Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

Ooo, I like that.

Since the point of the Dark Side is supposed to be "Like the Light Side, but using cruelty and viciousness to milk more power out of space magic", I've kinda been feeling like there should be Light and Dark Side equivalents of all the Force spells.

Like, I just mentioned in the Star Wars thread that I really appreciated Kylo Ren in TFA for his version of the mind trick. The Jedi Imperius Curse has long been really questionable as a Good Guy Power. Then along comes Kylo Ren like, "No, the mind trick is not a bad guy spell. You want to see the bad guy version of it? Here's Force Violently Crush Your Mind And Rip Knowledge From It Like A Boss."

Good guys cast Suggestion. Bad guys break open your skull and take what they want.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 13th 2020 at 9:26:33 AM

I always interpreted the Jedi mind trick to be closer to how actual hypnosis works, i.e. that you can't make people do something they wouldn't be willing to do in the first place.

Hence why a lot of the "weaker minds" that end up influenced tend to be some kind of guard - of bloody course they'd rather be anywhere else than on guard duty.

It's more of a nudge or a suggestion than actual mind control - Kylo Ren's approach seems more similar to Joruus C'baoth, i.e. actual Mind Rape.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jan 13th 2020 at 5:33:30 PM

Should be noted that said "light side lightning" Electric Judgement was considered controversial even in-universe. It was even classified as forbidden by the Order.

And most Sith don't even bother with it since they don't do "gentle". They fry people with Force Lightning, torture them with scan grids, or just straight up Force Choke them into submission.

Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 12:37:07 AM

Why am I not surprised it's mainly brought up during the Vong era?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jan 13th 2020 at 5:40:06 PM

Man, the Vong era had so much stupid crap.

The Ssi-ruuk did the whole "creepy aliens from unknown space invading the galaxy" thing way better.

Give me dinosaurs over Hellraiser rejects any day of the week.

This was Leia Organa's line in The Truce at Bakura, slightly soured for me by the following sentence, source is Tatooine Ghost by Troy Denning.

I'd have to read that part myself to see if I buy it, but I dunno, it feels like reading a book about Hitler being a rebellious son to his dickhead dad and going "oh, I guess he had it hard, I forgive him now".

Ooo, I like that.

There was also a Light Side organization that had a variant of force lightning but theres no actual detail on the ability beyond it getting countered by Luke and the Jedi who worked on Lightside lightning had been a member of that group and that it was different colored than either.

Edited by doineedaname on Jan 13th 2020 at 12:47:30 PM

for all this about bad redemption.....what is a good redemption?

People bring zuko but I feel that only happen because zuko never really did anything bad or at least nothing TRULY evil that antagonize the audience.

is why people can forgive vader: nobody give a damn about aldeebaran, but kylo kill a fan favorite and act like a creep.

Or why we acept finn easly even when he was a stormtropper: he chiken out at first oportunity and readly become a good guy, even when he kill other stormtroper ho didnt have the luck of being a main chararter.

If anything it seen SW never really learn anything.

""No, the mind trick is not a bad guy spell. You want to see the bad guy version of it? Here's Force Violently Crush Your Mind And Rip Knowledge From It Like A Boss.""

Which is hilarious because rey revert this back to Kylo, meaing that she...reverse mind rape him?.

Its....a interesting though

Edited by unknowing on Jan 13th 2020 at 2:25:36 PM

> Give me dinosaurs over Hellraiser rejects any day of the week.

I call them Star War's Dark Eldar for a reason,I swear thats who they're based off

I agree that you need to have done something genuinely evil to be redeemed from.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 13th 2020 at 10:41:43 AM

That is why for me one of the best redemption or at least atoner history is...diablo from sucide squad.

I mean he make no quams that he did was bad, WE SEE IT and he act in consistent manner around it: he never used is power, he try to talk other about it, and he break enchantrest ilusion by pretyt much saying "It was my mistake and im not going to run away" and he procide to sacrifice himself, I feel he should lived at least.

compare to black widow who in theory is an atoner....we never see that, is informed atributed and so far she is a good guy with rough edge it.

I was going to think Jaime Lannister was one of the best redemption stories but...

WELLLLL Lll...

It didn't stick to the landing.

Jury's still out on the books.

In the book it did well by taking is hand and showing what he fell over and over.

But I get there is a sense of...suffering? a chararter need to happen in order to redeem, all almost all option of kylo that dosent end with his death end with him being humilied or kick so much for nothing more than catharsis, to the point is kinda.....disturbing, for me at least.

No, what I mean is that his arc in the books isn't finished yet. We can only assume it won't end up being a mess like it was in the movies, but we don't know where it'll go in the end.

If we're talking about Jaime, I'm gonna be blunt and say that if anything, the show made him more heroic. The books would made Jaime even more dark (thought likely, the end result would be the same, a Brienne who thinks he is redeemed and a Jaime who think he isn't before dying, with the audience having the last word).

Jaime's arc is all about the limits of redemption, George literally compared it to a guard of a Concentration Camp, it definitely wouldn't end with a "You're redeemed" card. And for all we see, Jaime's future seems guided to be a series of utter failures.

But yeah, there's a big difference between redeeming a Villain and Anti-Villain. Zuko and Finm are cases where they pretty much haven't done anything really nasty.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 13th 2020 at 2:21:07 PM

The funny thing is that Lucas himself didn’t even believe Anakin was truly redeemed◊. Which makes him including Anakin in Force Heaven with Yoda and Obi-Wan all the more baffling.

What exactly should be the final fate of someone who sincerely repents of evil?

It feels horrifying that, "it doesn't matter if I've changed, you're damned forever."

Mind you, that's a big deal in Christianity that being the "good son" doesn't mean that you get special privileges over being one who comes back. Other religions and ethics don't allow unlimited forgiveness.

You're always the dude who fucked up.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 13th 2020 at 12:21:25 PM

It depends in how it conect witht he audience.

because in fiction, morality and justice is usually more conected in how much the audience buy him, if tobias kept saying that fiction always have a god that is the writer, then the audience are the other god who play the role of the judge, which is in part bad because more often that not, the hability to charm the audience influence A LOT in how they will take it.

Well there are crimes that are too awful to fully make amends for, at least in a single human lifetime. Merely recognizing that you have done something wrong doesn't erase the consequences of that wrong. You can change and become a better person but there are things you just have to live with.

I feel the Force Ghost being Anakin (i.e Hayden Christensen) rather than Vader actually improves the morality of the situation. It makes me think of the Catholic concept of Purgatory, the post-mortem purification of a sinner's soul. So Anakin is the ghost because his essence was purified, killing away the evil of Darth Vader and allowing him to go back to the purer soul of Anakin Skywalker, before he fell to darkness (and one presumes before he wiped out a tribe of Tusken Raiders).

So Vader is well and truly gone. Only the Anakin that could have been lingers.

At least from my Catholic understanding, redemption is earned by how much you dedicate yourself to amend for your crimes or mistakes, even if that means a lifetime dedication and by how you are doing this out of goodness instead of self-gain. This would mean of course than in fiction you could have a character married to the job explicitly saying that he or she is in an unrewarded and often frustrating post to atone for an evil they committed before.

There's also the problem that redemption is a two-way thing, a person must labor to achieve it and the wronged must know when to give it. You can have a thief for instance that, in the eyes of the cast has been largely redeemed but in the eyes of the victims he or she will forever be a criminal who would be better off dead.

Edit:

The concept of Purgatory, along with the Sacrament of Penitence, are the theological answer to the weight of a sin. Any sin can be redeemed, but to enter heaven you might toll to redeem for it, even after dead, so a person that died in God's grace but who has yet to properly repay his or her crimes would stay in purgatory to cleanse his or her soul until they are ready to enter into heaven. In fact, the two-way thing I mentioned before is important for those in purgatory as the prayers of those still alive can help the soul enter into heaven faster, which is basically a way of the living to tell God that person X does deserve to pass the pearly gates.

Edited by raziel365 on Jan 13th 2020 at 1:01:32 AM

Deathbed repentence is also a thing where even if you're only sorry for what you did in your last moments, that you are still redeemed because it's not the actions that matter but the state of your soul.

Heel Realization and My God, What Have I Done? being more important than the opportunity to atone (if its even possible).