What do you think of the idea of demons being entirely separate beings from angels?

Rather than being fallen angels, demons were a different race created by God, and were Always Chaotic Evil from the beginning? Does this idea have potential? Or is it better to sick with the Fallen Angel trope?

That's sort of a hopelessly broad and vague question. We'd need to know more about the story/context to answer.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 7th 2018 at 10:06:24 AM

The context is that demons were malevolent entities born before time. And angels have to keep them at bay for the sake of creation.

The question is, why would God deliberately create something that is always Chaotic Evil? What is the point of that? Is this supposed to be a reinterpretation of Christian themes or is its own fantasy cosmology you're doing here?

Origin myths and the like usually have something like "they turned on their masters/creators/parents" rather than God just deliberately creating something evil because... there's no reason you've actually given us here. The question really does lack a good deal of context even with your later explanation.

And, I feel like I ask this a lot lately: what purpose would this serve that the Fallen Angel trope can't? If the answer is none, then you should stick with fallen angels. If you are super attached to the idea, you can just have it that God created them, and they turned on him, instead of he just created something evil for no reason. (Especially since in Christian theology the whole thing with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil seems to indicate that the possibility to be evil was always there, and that it had more to do with making an informed choice, which is an action and not something inherit to anyone's nature.)

Edited by AceofSpades on Jul 8th 2018 at 2:41:24 PM

I guess God's reasons for creating an Always Chaotic Evil race might be for testing humanity or something.

Some interpretations of Apophis have him being created by the gods because...reasons.

Yeah, we still need context.

In Christian mythology having the Devil be a fallen angel serves a narrative and moral purpose. It shows that creation can be corrupted, that God favored men over angels, and so on. That conceit, that the source of evil is a fallen good guy, is actually one of the central elements of a lot of Western mythology because of its narrative aspects.

So then, within your story you have to ask yourself what narrative elements you want. Those two options convey different ideas, which could be appropriate or inappropriate for the story you’re trying to tell.

To use the example of Apophis, most interpretations of the mythology have him being born as a by-product of Ra’s birth. What this says about evil is that it’s not an original force but rather a consequence of good, which is a very different moral than what’s conveyed by most Christian mythology.

Basically, you have to choose what you want to convey to the reader.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 8th 2018 at 8:38:31 AM

Like what KIND of context, exactly? I'm trying to give it.

You haven’t really give us any context to work with. It’s hard to judge whether something works in a story without knowing anything about that story.

As Ace asked, is this supposed to be a version of the Christian cosmology? Is it a new fantasy cosmology? We need to know what you’re trying to do here. Additionally, background like this usually implies something about the morality of the setting, so is there a message you’re trying to convey over this story?

Yep, it's pretty much a variant of Christian cosmology.

I'd suggest you take a look at Middle Eastern mythology. The Djinn and the Ifrit, for instance, can be good or evil, and like humans have souls. Either can become a Shaitan (an "adversary"), but aren't necessarily so by nature. They aren't fallen angels, but simply "hidden" races (the best corollary in Western traditions would probably be fairies, as they were originally portrayed).

Again, chose what fits the themes of your story best.

Is God insane? Because if It isn't crazy or evil, it doesn't make sense for It to create demons intentionally. Or maybe God is really, REALLY obsessed with being "neutral".

If you're trying to create a world based on Christian theology and your setting has God creating demons intentionally, you've set up a fundamental narrative contradiction, since the core doctrine of all Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is that God is a benevolent deity who has the best interests of humans in mind, even if He Moves In Mysterious Ways. (Well, if you ignore the Old Testament, in which God is a colossal dick more akin to pantheistic deities.)

So the idea that this all-knowing, all-loving deity has created a bunch of Always Chaotic Evil monsters to tear down reality is inherently self-contradictory. Now, this could be a great setup for the idea that God is not actually omnibenevolent, if that's where you want to go, and you'd be treading a well-worn path.

Note that, while I don't want to get into an argument over theodicy, the Problem with Evil has been around for ages and it is held by many to inherently contradict any claim that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. Regardless, the idea that demons exist doesn't contradict Christian doctrine, but the idea that God created demons intentionally most certainly does, unless you go in for one of those interpretations where God created evil in order to test and purify human souls.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 9th 2018 at 12:57:13 PM

IF you REALLY NEED to, then you need to justify this. Some form of Cosmic Balance must be done here in my opinion, like Good Needs Evil. Or the God might as well be a Chaotic/True Neutral. Or just an outright Eldritch Abomination. Do what you want, Crystal Dragon Jesus's will is weaker than yours.

Edited by Trocryst on Jul 10th 2018 at 3:47:46 PM

I don't think you need to go so far as to set up a rigid duality, in which balance needs to be maintained and Good Needs Evil or anything. You could just have it that all sentient creatures have free will, whether they think they do or not (Neil Gaiman has gotten some mileage out of this); that by itself will mean that some of those creatures will choose to do things that God doesn't like, and that we as humans characterize as evil. There's no real reason to justify why God would allow evil, given that any speculation you do on that subject you might as well toss down a well; it's been argued over for centuries.

Edited by Robbery on Jul 11th 2018 at 1:09:23 AM