Ambiguous Name: Face Death With Dignity

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Continued from this thread.

So the trope leaves open to interpretation whether it's for "facing death with dignity" in general, or specifically for accepting death as punishment for some misdeed, or anything in between. Naming it after a pre-existing phrase ^note (which frankly I don't think we should do unless we're willing to stick to its real definition) kind of implies the former, yet the description could be interpreted as implying the latter.

edited 4th Jun '18 1:16:15 PM by neoYTPism

Fixed the threadlink; someone else opened this thread already.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I always thought the "Face Death with Dignity" trope was always just accepting that it's gonna happen and there's nothing you can do about it, so just face it. Like in Justice League, Superman was more then prepared to kill Darkseid, but they're fighting inside a Ship ready to explode, undoubtedly killing everyone inside. Batman manages to use a boomtube (A Portal device) to escape with Superman and Orion (Darkseid's Son), But Darkseid was pinned down by the walls and ceilings from his fight with Superman and was too weaken by the assault to even get up, only just watch as the Portal closes up without him. The ship is about to explode, Darkseid has no way out of this predicament, what does he do, chuckles and says "Loser..." with a smile. Ship explodes, killing him. hat's what I think of when facing death with dignity. I just never thought it was also "facing his death as an acceptable punishment for his crimes", that makes it feel like it limits to a few types of characters to me.

@3: That's the kind of moment I also have in mind, albeit with a stronger gesture of dignity than Die Laughing. I am thinking of scenes like this or this.

While the first paragraph of Face Death with Dignity sounds alot like Tired of Running, the example section is actually quite in line with what 3 and I am imagining.

My question is: should we have a separate trope for non-malicious characters facing their death with dignity like at the end of (spoilers!) Deep Impact, Rogue One or Melancholia? Face Death with Dignity is currently written for characters worthy of death only. But is there a narrative difference between the alignments when it comes to dignified deaths? Where should those examples go?

Edited by eroock on Jul 29th 2018 at 11:04:00 AM

deleted

edited 21st Jun '18 9:51:33 PM by jamespolk

It's been a month... and a week. Forgot the "and a week" part until now.

So we've gathered some examples of each concept, but the remaining question is, are we going to change the trope's name, redefine the trope to fit the outside world's definition of the phrase, or create a new subtrope for villainous characters accepting comeuppance while bringing this trope back in line with the outside world's definition?

Edited by neoYTPism on Jul 28th 2018 at 9:54:33 AM

The last option - redefine Face Death with Dignity to fit its common definition, and create a new subtrope for the villain variant.

Edited by Lymantria on Jul 28th 2018 at 1:54:54 PM

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Im also fine with going the later option as well.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

It's been another 10 days. Anyone else want to weigh in?

No subtrope unless someone volunteers to clean through 3000 links.

I think that the Alice and Bob construction of the definition is the problem here.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

What would you suggest doing? Leaving the trope as is? Are you saying that changing the description would fix the misuse?

Edited by Lymantria on Sep 5th 2018 at 9:22:57 AM

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It's not just in the Alice and Bob definition. Trope Distinctions / D To F also uses the "accepting punishment for misdeeds" definition, to distinguish this trope from other similar tropes (namely Don't Fear the Reaper, Not Afraid to Die, and Obi-Wan Moment).

... until SUDDENLY DINOSAURS.

Again, what would you suggest doing?

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I think we can treat "accepting death as punishment for some misdeed" as a variant of Death Equals Redemption and redefine Face Death with Dignity as "character accepts death with stoicism".

Edited by crazysamaritan on Sep 24th 2018 at 10:17:29 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That could work.

Edited by Lymantria on Oct 7th 2018 at 10:41:55 AM

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"Accepting death as punishment for some misdeed" lacks the Heel–Face Turn quality currently required by Death Equals Redemption. Allowing such a variant would feel like a decay.

I am down with "character (of any alignment) accepts death (rightful or not) with stoicism".

How is it lacking? To recognize it as a misdeed is a Heel Realization and punishment is sought as a form of redemption. Redemption means they become "good".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Fair enough. Do we actually have example of that listed on Face Death with Dignity?

Peabody Sam brought up some alternative "gracious dying" tropes for heroic characters. Here are my comments:

• Don't Fear the Reaper: This is when the character faces a personification of death and goes along with what's coming. Valid but quite specific.
• Obi-Wan Moment: Quite specific. Characters can Face Death with Dignity without having meaningful last words. I am referring here to the examples from Deep Impact, Rogue One and Melancholia linked above.
• Not Afraid to Die: That page refers twice to Face Death with Dignity as the way heroic characters die so it's going in circles. Does dignity equal fearlessness when it comes to facing death? Also the trope is written like a character trope and not a situational trope. What about characters who only have one shot as displaying this trait?

In summary, I feel there are two possible courses of action:

1. Rewrite Face Death with Dignity to make it fit for characters of all alignments. No bad deed or Heel–Face Turn necessary.
2. Keep Face Death with Dignity for villainous characters and move heroic ones to Not Afraid to Die (with some tweaking of the description to make it work).

Votes? Opinions?

Option 1. Not sure whether to merge Not Afraid to Die and Face Death with Dignity or not.

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Option 1. I also see nothing wrong with merging Face Death with Dignity and Not Afraid to Die.

There is also Defiant to the End that is used as a death trope with a somewhat similar meaning.

Edited by Asherinka on Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:09:49 PM

Face Death with Dignity is a passive demeanor, Defiant to the End an active one. Should be easy to keep them apart.

As far as I can tell, death (or almost dying) isn't a requirement for Not Afraid to Die. A character doesn't need to die to express that they don't fear death. Face Death with Dignity, on the other hand, is for characters who are about to die.

In other words: Not Afraid to Die is a personality trait, while Face Death with Dignity is an action.

... until SUDDENLY DINOSAURS.

Is this scene Face Death with Dignity (passive) or Defiant to the End (active)? It is currently listed as both. To give some context — it is dystopian society where all emotions and anything that invokes them (including poetry) is forbidden by state.

Edit: It is not the only case of an example being listed on both pages.

Edit: There is also Do Not Go Gentle which seems to be more about the active attitude than Defiant to the End. The scene I am asking about is not an example of Do Not Go Gentle.

Edited by Asherinka on Nov 3rd 2018 at 5:49:13 PM

^ He seems composed and dignified in this moment, not disrespectful of his opponent. No laughing, verbal abuse or spitting going on. There's a "The Reason You Suck" Speech though which I would agree blurs the line. Can one be Defiant to the End and Face Death with Dignity at the same time?

Edited by eroock on Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:56:10 PM