She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

I think a good rogues gallery needs variety, you need some sympathetic villains, but sometimes you just want to see some evil bastards do evil things. I have listened to history and true crime podcasts, vile people exist in the real world.

Michael Myers from Halloween works best as a pure evil force, when they tried to make him sympathetic in the reboot, it did not work.

Batman TAS had several sympathetic villains, except for the Joker, a nightmarish Monster Clown who killed and hurt people for fun.

Netflix has a new Dark Crystal series and the main villains the Skeksis are still insanely evil, just like in the 1982 film. When they are not being evil, they are being petty or just gross, but they are so over the top evil, they are the best part of the show.

Sometimes an evil villain can contrast a sympathetic one, it's why in X-men Magneto often fights genocidal monsters like William Stryker or Apocalypse as much as he does the X-men.

Sure they could say Horde Prime is evil but is said his wife died or something, but he can work just as well as a power-mad evil emperor. This trope can work:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1-XprjlATEo

Heck, I think redemption stories for Hordak or even Catra work better if Horde Prime is a great evil threatening the galaxy and the have to help She-Ra stop him by the series finale.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 8th 2019 at 7:33:30 AM

Even the good Skesis, The Heretic, is over the top and silly and out of his mind on drugs.

I’ve mentioned it before, but Dracula is the most recent really great example of a villain with a sympathetic origin story and goal, but who is undeniably evil. That Tragic Monster is very well done.

Like any trope, I just feel like there’s an overuse, or there’s not enough focus on the Monster aspects, because everyone wants to go in on the Tragic.

True, but I feel like Dracula was somewhat redeemed by the end, attacking his son made him feel intense remorse and he let his son kill him, it felt like taking a rabid dog out rather than the death of a truly evil villain. Dracula would not be evil if they not brutually murdered his wife. Unlike other villains, who evil due to more petty reasons (power lust, sadism, etc). Heck, that show has Carmilla in it, who is a power-hungry sadist.

I am just saying there are plenty of completely evil and entertaining villains out there, Michael Myers, most versions of the Joker, the Skeksis, etc. A truly evil can highlight what makes a sympathetic villain sympathetic, it is easier to have these villains switch sides and be sympathetic if they are fighting against a monstrous foe.

Now it's not my show, Stevenson may have different plans for Horde Prime, I am just giving my ideas of how I like to see him handled.

Horde Prime was a nothing character in the 1985 show, so Stevenson can make him into anything she wants. But both Hordak and Catra are evil because of abusive pasts a seeking recognition from authority figures. Horde Prime is the ultimate authority figure, there would no one to look up to and he is such an egomaniac he made an army of clones of himself. They are rolling responsibility for this bad stuff uphill, from Catra to Shadow Weaver to Hordak and now Horde Prime, you cannot roll it further up past Horde Prime. I think if the ultimate authority figure is revealed to be unworthy of devotion, then that gives Catra and Hordak some character development, while Horde Prime remains the ultimate evil foe, but that's just my take.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 8th 2019 at 8:22:20 AM

This is part of why I wanted King Hiss and friends to show up, the idea of Horde Prime vs Serpos, two Eldritch Abomination waging war over Etheria with the Rebellion and Horde caught in the middle as the planet is laid to waste could both put the evil of Catra and Hordak in major perspective, and with the right person in charge, look really cool. They should have no nuance at that scale.

Variety is the key.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 8th 2019 at 11:27:04 AM

My favorite two sympathetic 'villains' in animation at the moment are surprisingly not really villains (well ok you *could* construe one of them as one): the titular Bojack Horseman and (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE SHOW, LIKE SERIOUSLY MAJOR SPOILERS) Steven Universe's Rose Quartz/Pink Diamond

For the former, we have this (seeming) Jerk with a Heart of Gold who has quite the Freudian Excuse, but thoughtout the show it is repeatedly hammered through that said excuse does not excuse his current toxic behavious, he doesn't get to prop them up to deflect him from criticism, succinctly said in this climax of the show's third season:

For the latter, (again major spoilers): we have someone who really embodies 'never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity/naivety', how her shortsightedness, privilege, screwed-up upbringing (Pink Diamond is actually surprisingly close to Bojack in a lot of ways) make a shitstew of issues that not just give her major issues but outright dire consequences to those around her, no matter her good traits.

We have a confirmed NYCC panel!

It will be on Sunday on the main stage.

Well tfb the skeksis Scientist was arguable a sympathetic character who received routine abuse, yet ends up being portrayed as irredeemably evil. Like Catra his abuse explains his cruelty, but doesn't justify it.

Edited by Moroaica on Sep 9th 2019 at 9:48:47 AM

I like it when the villains receive a very specific, legal punishment. They receive justice, rather than being killed by the heroes in a moment of heroism or suffering from a desire for bloody revenge.

Even if Catra ends up reforming and getting better, that doesn't undo what she has done. As such, Catra is judged very specifically for her actions. She doesn't get to live as a free person by the end of the story, and is imprisoned. Maybe even for the rest of her life. But perhaps Adora forgives her in the end, and Catra still has that. A friend to visit her.

Edited by SilentColossus on Sep 9th 2019 at 11:20:53 AM

I'd almost prefer if Adora keeps at giving up on Catra. Not everyone can be changed, and people like her shouldn't have to suffer the abuse of others who won't leave them alone. Catra's been almost nothing but toxic, and she has every right to wash her hands of that and move on.

The idea of punitive justice is an evil barbarity that is so old and abiding that we’ve come to believe it to be just and good.

Making Catra suffer for the suffering she caused does not balance some karmic checkbook, it just adds to the total suffering. If she continues to be a problem, then neutralize her. Oppose her for what she will do, and only use what she’s done to help you predict that.

If she ceases to be a problem, then seeking to make her suffer for what she’s done is something I believe to be wrong.

Thats very vague statement, like what do you mean, rape victims should forgive their rapists, because they aren't interested in raping anymore? We should demolish prisons, if prisoners aren't interested in committing crime anymore? Victims of betrayal and abuse should insta forgive their abuser? What do you mean by "punitive justice"?

Who said anything about forgiveness? Not pursuing vengeance isn't the same as forgiveness. I got plenty of people that I'm unable to forgive for something or other, that doesn't mean I'm constantly plotting their downfall.

"Punishment" doesn't actually do anything. There is nothing that can be done to or by the perpetrator that can erase the wrongs committed. What is far more productive is ensuring that, one way or another, the person will no longer be a threat. Rehabilitation over punishment, basically.

Removal if rehabilitation doesn’t work, but don’t try to make removal into punishment. It’s perhaps more forgivable to de-prioritize the comfort of the guilty *within certain humane bounds*, but don’t go looking to make them hurt.

(And please don’t go putting words in my mouth either.)

Yeah I'm pretty sure Adora is done trying to help Catra after the last season's ending. After this point any improvements Catra makes will have to be done on her own. Which is probably the better route to take with it.

Definitely. The shocked look Catra had at the end could be the first step onto redemption. "Wait a second, Adora is pissed at me. Not annoyed, not scared, actually so pissed she seriously wants me dead. Maybe I should rethink everything."

She could of course double down, but right now it's the crossroads.

Perhaps prison is too much, then. I agree, actully. Steven Universe has made me a bit too suspicious.

How about this: she gets better, bot no one actually forgives her. She isn't allowed to join the Best Friend Squad. She doesn't get to live in Brightmoon happily ever after.

That is a message I think needs to be sent more. The people you've hurt are under no obligation to forgive you, no matter how much of a better you become.

Edited by SilentColossus on Sep 10th 2019 at 10:11:38 AM

> How about this: she gets better, bot no one actually forgives her. She isn't allowed to join the Best Friend Squad. She doesn't get to live in Brightmoon happily ever after.

So she's shunned by everyone and is left to wander the world instead?

Well,can't say its unfair but it is harsh,maybe too harsh

Or the Crimson Wastes, where she achieved success before.

Nah lets just give Catra the Lemongarb Punishment by giving her One Million Years in the dungeon . . . which isn’t really so bad as its just the guest room with one comfy sofa.

Killing Catra off is probably the easiest way to go about the idea of punishment if the show doesn't want to commit to deciding how someone who tried to break reality itself out of spite should be punished.

I admit, I have very little sympathy for Catra either. She's entertaining to watch because she's going through negative character development but at this point I don't want to see a redemption. Let other characters like Kyle and Scorpia, who are barely evil at all, get redeemed and keep the really bad apples bad.

(Though I will recognize some hypocrisy in that I want Hordak redeemed because I'm a sucker for Love Redeems stories. But I wouldn't be opposed to some Unholy Matrimony either between him and Entrapta.)

...I’m kind of wondering if they’re going to do a story where Kyle gets a means to strike back at the Horde and the Rebellion. Problem is there are a metric ton of of potential Unfortunate Implications if they do so.

Catra is someone who’s going to have to learn to deal with herself first. If she does survive and doesn’t end up in Princess Jail forever, I could see her Walking the Earth on a quest for enlightenment.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 10th 2019 at 2:45:22 PM

Didn't the writers say something along the lines of Kyle being a joke character? If so, he'll probably always be an unimportant Butt-Monkey.

Doesn’t mean you can’t use him for an episode or two before getting rid of the joke. But that’s me fumbling through ideas for new or more prominent villains that Mattel won’t call dibs on.

I won't lie, an episode with Kyle going From Nobody to Nightmare would probably be pretty cathartic.