Marvel's Iron Fist

Colleen went through her own trials in life. They even addressed this during date night.

Btw, another thing I noticed about the season is the sound. Mainly that it has a more, well, Asian tune to it and doesn't feel so out of place anymore.

Man, if Danny and Davos are products of the K'un-Lun system of discipline and anger management, almost anyone would be just as good if not better. Colleen has Hand training, minus the evil parts, which is still based on the teachings of K'un-Lun. She's certainly suffered in life and found a true path, making her equal to the task, without the gaping character flaws that made Danny and Davos so bad at it.

So I just finished Season 2 and my only real complaint is that Misty kinda outshines the main characters for a few episodes. I'm not against her having her moments, it's just that her presence is so strong that Danny and Colleen seem like they struggle trying to keep up for a while there.

Edited by ZheToralf on Sep 11th 2018 at 12:35:22 PM

In the later half of the season. And...

Wait... Erskine? Like, the Erskine?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 11th 2018 at 5:26:13 AM

Well that Season was indeed a quantum leap in quality compared to the first. It wasn't without weaknesses, but it was sure a whole lot of fun.

And I really hope we get a third season, can't wait for a buddy road trip storyline between Ward and Danny!

Different guy. Mika refers to the collector as "Ernst Erskine", which is the same name of a proeminent character in the Iron Fist comics, a researcher, collector and adventurer who wrote Orson Randall's Biography. The guy behind the Project Rebirth in Captain America was Abraham Erskine.

So I've decided to read some Iron Fist stuff since I'm curious about some of the plot threads for season 3. I'm not too concerned about reading the very early origin story stuff since I already know the basics. Is The Immortal Iron Fist a good starting point?

Colleen went through her own trials in life. They even addressed this during date night.

Colleen has Hand training, minus the evil parts, which is still based on the teachings of K'un-Lun. She's certainly suffered in life and found a true path, making her equal to the task, without the gaping character flaws that made Danny and Davos so bad at it.

That doesn't mean that she needs to be given the Fist. If you ask me, the lack of those gaping flaws is actually a factor against eligibility.

Colleen has had conflicts about her affiliations, yes, but they were rather obvious and simple decisions when push came to shove. So much so that she went from loving Bakuto to slicing his head off a matter of months later.

Her largest conflict this season is deciding to teach again. Even that falls a little flat, considering she spent the previous episodes beating the shit out of all sorts of henchmen. Which, to some extent, makes her come off more like someone who has a more peaceful spirit simply because she doesn't have problems that are as big.

I really don't know where you're coming from when you're saying that Danny having a more dysfunctional childhood makes him better suited to bear the Fist. Is that really the argument you're making? The person with the most angst deserves to have this sacred power of protection thrust upon them? Because then it really should've been Davos.

This quote from Raven Metzner is why I'm kinda iffy:

My favorite fight with her is the final fight in episode ten where she fights Davos and goes all the way through taking him down, out in the street, and then uses the Iron Fist to do the fist on fist punch. And that last moment where she knocks him back and she’s standing there, with her fists glowing. To me, is is the promise of all of those fights adding up to the creation of this new hero, an Asian American woman who is carrying the Iron Fist.

It almost comes off like Metzner is saying that Colleen was given the Fist because much of the "critical" conversation from last season was "Why is this white man doing karate and stealing Asian powers?"

Colleen didn’t earn or deserve the right to that power. Her fans can play devil’s advocate all they want but if the roles were reversed and it was Colleen’s comic source material being disrespected like this I’m sure they’d be dancing a different tune.

Fortunately next season seems to be heading towards being more focused on Danny. His story has lots of potential and stuff with him and Ward in Asia, and Orson Randall, seems like the perfect thing to focus on.

We did get to see Colleen's comic source material disrespected. Last season. And I will stand by the fact that Danny Rand remains Danny Rand with or without the power of his magic yellow hand. Rather than losing something by giving up that power, he gains a sense of wisdom and centredness he previously lacked. He stops being just a naive, angry kid who punches things — he shows that the platitudes he picked up in K'un-Lun aren't just for show. That kind of character development is worth a lot and not easy to come by — and he gets his actual powers back in the epilogue anyway, so really, how out of focus is he? He's only not the Iron Fist for like an episode and a half.

Edited by Unsung on Sep 12th 2018 at 3:01:42 AM

Having finished the season, I do think the final fight with Walker felt a lot like Let's You and Him Fight. It's acknowledged on both sides - multiple times as it's about to happen - that they have very little reason to actually fight in that moment, and her being so violence happy as apposed to simply ruthlessly pragmatic felt like a leap to get her to be a villain in the 11th hour - especially since unlike everything else she does this season she acknowledges that there's no benefit to her from acting that way. Even finding out that Joy was paying her to kill Davos, it's still odd because she was already getting a paycheck from at least three different filthy rich characters over the course the season and - as it turns out - Joy was going to pay her anyway.

I almost thought she became Bloody Mary and was pretending to be Walker the whole time, until it's confirmed that yes, it's still Walker. I guess her being in the midst of a Freak Out due to discovering Bloody Mary's existence could explain her being unstable, but I wish there was more to it - especially since we're supposed to believe she's a threat going forward but she has no actual reason to antagonize the protagonists - or even Joy, really - going forward.

Also, in lighter news, there's another surviving villain to possibly add to the Netflix Masters of Evil. Welcome to the club, Davos!

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 11th 2018 at 8:49:34 AM

You know what, I'd really like to see Chuck Norris play Orson Randall. Sure he's not that great of an actor but part of me thinks he could make a good Orson, an older and weary version. He could certainly teach the Finn Jones a few moves, even if he's about to be 80 years old.

Honestly, I am not bothered by Colleen becoming a co-protagonist of the show. It is a good compromise. The Iron Fist fans will get their Danny Rand, the ones who wanted a race bend get their Asian Hero. And I DO think that it is a good idea who have an actual Asian character (small reminder, Colleen was born in Asia before ending up in America) in a prominent role in the show.

It also allows for a more interesting dynamic. It is worth repeating, all those Netflix heroes need other characters to work with and to contrast against. And in the second seasons, this was handled the best in the first four episodes of Daredevil and in Iron Fist.

The idea that "destiny draws you to the Iron Fist" if you're a distant descendant of a previous Iron Fist is not only contradictory to the lessons that the Iron Fist comics will give you (being, you create your own path with your own will, hands, and agency, and that your "birthrights" are not inherent or always deserved) but it's also a horribly cliche, overdone and lazy way to write around an issue.

This show is called Iron Fist. Not "The Danny and Colleen Show" or "Daughters Of The Dragon: Origins". They absolutely put a little too much focus on those side characters. You can argue if you want, but that's what they are.

In terms of skills, Colleen is absolutely Danny Lite. He is a better martial artist and has a more arcane way of thinking and fighting. The rest is simply that her character and arc, in my mind, don't make her worthy of holding the Iron Fist. Her journey in this season was ridiculously paper thin and cliche. "Character doesn't want to fight anymore, not-so-begrudgingly does it almost seconds after they make that statement, meets random civilian (usually a younger person), hesitates over something, random dies, finally stops procrastinating." Ward's journey was at least slightly off-kilter in where it led. He doesn't reconcile with Joy, and he can't use a rocky fatherhood path to sort himself out even if he wants to.

I even appreciate the why behind Danny's decision to give up the Iron Fist, but like this? To Colleen? No.

I should clarify that I actually like Colleen as a character and don't have a problem with Misty like many people do, but they've been side characters for decades for a good reason.

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 12th 2018 at 8:47:01 AM

This is not what happens….

Colleen doesn't get the Iron Fist because of her ancestors - remember, Danny isn't even aware of them when he decides that she should take it - but because she is better suited to wield it. And she is better suited because of the training she got from her grandfather. If we assume that it was her grandfather on her mothers side, this makes perfectly sense, because that would mean that what he called bushido might have been inspired by the kind of training his ancestor learned being the Iron Fist, and which she used to train her own children. Hell, Colleen might have gotten a better training than Danny did in the end.

This would also explain... Why Colleen herself had such a special status within the hand. They went out of their way to lure her in, and the first season never bothered to explain why. Well, her having Iron Fist blood would be a possible reason.

There is certainly more than enough room in the show for more than one wielder of the Iron Fist - just like it is the case in the comics.

To me it seems like Danny Rand realized that with K'un-Lun (seemingly) gone, he is now a protector of New York. But Colleen is much better suited to that role as someone just as skilled as him with a much stronger link to New York and its society.

The only really major difference I can tell between them is that Colleen has not faced Shou-Lao the Undying.

When those "side characters" prove more interesting and likable than your main leads, it's not exactly a bad idea to put the focus on them.

Misty and Colleen have been lead characters in their own stories like the various versions of Heroes for Hire or Defenders. They're as much side characters as Danny.

Also Danny has realized that he wanted the Iron Fist for the wrong reason in the first place. Colleen actually wants to improve the community she lives in. She has a purpose outside of the Iron Fist, Danny hasn't, so just as Ward needs to get out of Rand Industries to understand who he truly is, Danny needs to let go off the Fist, to find himself and his own purpose, too. It's a great way to conclude the story of the first season, to be honest. My only concern is that we might not get to see this journey, but I think we should.

Is it just me, or do the Netflix shows really like their stock character of the person who is caught up in the quagmire of the season, usually a teenager, who might be morally ambiguous but has a spark of goodness that the characters latch onto. That character gets pulled deeper and deeper into the mire as the season goes on, while the characters pin their hopes on saving them, up until they die in the 11th hour to show how truly awful the situation is.

Every one of the Netflix shows has done it, some more than once. It got to the point where I could guess BB's character arc the moment he showed up on screen.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 12th 2018 at 12:24:48 PM

No, it is not just you. I had the same problem.

The shows have a lot of similar archetypes and plot beats. While I enjoy all of them in their own way I would not recommend binging them for this reason.

Edit: The season 2s also have an annoying Breaking the Fellowship trend. Every single one has done it.

Edited by Kostya on Sep 12th 2018 at 3:47:01 PM

@dmcreif "Not the Danny and Colleen Show?" "Danny Lite?" Never like this, not to Colleen? At this point you're just being petty. Danny is still the main character. He still has powers. The whole season still deals with the fallout from his past life in K'un-Lun. Colleen's S2 arc hit some overly familiar beats, but definitely no more than Danny's in the first season. Sour grapes, man.

I've lowered my expectations at this point. But yes, it's a little too obvious. When you've got five shows running in such close proximity, you'd really be better off accentuating the differences.

Edited by Unsung on Sep 23rd 2018 at 11:35:24 AM

Yes, but I didn't mind in this case, because for one, it didn't feel as contrived as it did in the other shows and two, it was a more amiable break up. The other shows all ended on a very depressing point, but Iron Fist had a kind of upbeat end.

I have watched the fight again...and I noticed a couple of things.

1. Davos kind of disrespected the ritual twice before he got Danny on the ground. First he cut apart the fabric which connected them, and then he deliberately took off his mask. Danny lost his two, but that wasn't deliberate, it just happened during the fight. Anyway, I wonder if this is a reason why the two male judge look so grim and exchange glances when it looks like he would win.

2. Danny did use the sun light deliberately - you can see him looking up before making the movie - but I am wondering if keeping on the mask would have protected Davos eyes.

3. I am still wondering why the fight was interrupted. Was it because it looked as if Danny would be able to do what Davos couldn't do, and Davos father wanted to rescue his life? Was it, because they weren't sure if Danny would be able to do it either, but they picked him because he had shown himself to be more stubborn? Or didn't they expect that Danny would survive encountering the Dragon anyway, so they wanted to sent him first and then send Davos? Were they displeased with Davos because he didn't immediately go for the kill, following the teachings of his mother, or was he too aggressive for their taste?

I really hope that we learn more about the motivations of the elders in the upcoming season. Frankly, they have left us with a lot of questions.

It's hard to interpret where they were going in the fight, but a lot of it seems to have had a lot to do with emotion. The Iron Fist is solely a weapon of K’un Lun. The one purpose it serves is to defeat the Hand. That means it's supposed to be suppressed of any human feelings or emotions. Now unfortunately, we don’t get enough of Danny’s side of things regarding the training process. However, we did get Davos’s side of things and he was already in a messed up state.

Unlike Danny, who was orphaned at the time he arrived in K’un Lun, Davos still had his mother who was his guide to achieving the Iron Fist. But its not until the 2x05 flashbacks that we get an insight to his relationship with her. And it's very toxic to say the least. Because there was all this tension and drama between them, Davos’s focus is jeopardized. Whereas Danny didn’t have familial attachments holding him back from fighting for the Iron Fist's power. He and Davos were like brothers, yes, but Danny knew what was expected of him.

So during the fight, it's possible that Lei Kung might’ve picked up on Davos’s anguish which is not how an Iron Fist is supposed to behave. Like Davos had said to Claire, “a weapon has no emotion,” which makes it pretty plain and simple: Davos was never going to be worthy. When he took the Iron Fist from Danny we saw how the power corrupted him, turned him into a monster. Davos abused the Fist. He wasn’t making rash decisions about how to use it. He was hurting/killing people, he had ill intentions. I think all his homicidal actions are a way of getting back at his mother. Again these aren’t qualifications for the successor of the Iron Fist.

Anyways, when Davos has the upper hand, he is fighting with his anger and frustration but Danny isn’t. Davos is conflicted and compromised due to his mother being present; his mind is only on winning the fight to prove something to her, nothing to do with the Iron Fist. And that’s why he wasn’t chosen. Danny’s willpower, determination and endurance to the pain earned the respect of Lei Kung and the other monks.

It wasn’t just that Danny was the better fighter of the two. It was his strength of character that caught their attention. Danny wanted to be the Iron Fist so badly, it was all he could see for himself. He worked his ass off for 15 years to achieve this goal and came out the victor.