How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

Plot twist: Only Australia has gone Mad Max.

So basically nothing's changed there? Just kidding. Australia is more like Pandora (from Avatar)

Edited by Protagonist506 on Oct 17th 2018 at 10:19:35 AM

One that ended up very differently for the natives then.

That's all well and good, but my personal opinion, as a disability advocate, is that what determines whether a society is virtuous is not whether it values strength, but whether it understands and accepts weakness.

And the reason for this is that celebrating strength is easy. Every society glorifies what it considers to be strength, even if they differ on how they define strength.

'Cause it's nice to take everything you consider virtuous and say 'that's strength' and then say that a virtuous society celebrates that strength. But if we look at what our actual society actually considers strength, which includes things like 'success regardless of how it is achieved', and (toxic) masculinity and (toxic) femininity, and what it considers weakness, which includes things like emotional vulnerability, disability and non-conformity to one's assigned gender roles...

So, to me at least, a virtuous society isn't one that glorifies 'strength', but one that doesn't vilify 'weakness'.

You're veering into accusing other posters of being fascists. I'd tone it down.

Every one of the Virtues (whichever Seven you use) has the capacity to be horribly subverted into working counter the intent of the Virtue. Ditto every Sin, although I'm not going to go into those all Greed-positive, Gordon Gekko-style. Needless to say: there are positive applications of all the sins. Just as every virtue can go bad. Let's look at the Cardinals.

Faith — Faith-based hate crimes, everybody! Or, doing other horrible acts in the secure knowledge that you are Doing A Good Deed. The Powers That Be wouldn't let us do bad deeds in their name; ergo, what we are doing cannot be totally Bad! (Hello, Envy, Wrath, Pride and Greed... and, probably Lust-for-recognition-and-fun... and maybe Sloth, if that roll itself off the floor enough to get involved — also, every brand of Extremist, ever.)

Hope — Misplaced hope has led to absolute horrors. And, if all you're busy doing about a terrible situation is hoping something will turn out alright in the end, may I introduce you to the Sin of Sloth (and Grave of the Fireflies and a massive box of tissues)? These two, Virtue and Sin, are practically twin sisters, sometimes. Hope is all sorts of good in the right situation, but it's all to easy to brush off somebody else's problem by telling them that you sincerely hope it'll get better for them soon (meaning every word), and then going about your day, blissfully unaware of how hard you just kicked them in the stomach. Hope converts stunningly quickly to "not my problem". Can we say "Protagonist-Centered Morality", here? I think we can.

Charity, however... Hoooboy. Of all the Cardinal Virtues, this one is the worst when people misuse it. Why is it the worst? Because anybody who receives the charity of others must merely be being ungrateful when they point out how the help is actually harming them. Because the act of charity isn't for the receivers of it — oh, no: it's explicitly to make the givers both look and feel good, of course! Whole countries have been devastated by Charity-with-strings. (Hello, Pride and Greed — Passive-Aggressive Kombat via Unwanted Gift Plot, thy name is Charity.)

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 18th 2018 at 12:22:08 PM

But in all those examples, the Virtue is mixed with a Sin or two. It's just proof that Sins can corrupt anything.

Alrighty: say you are the Sin of Wrath working in conjunction with Lust and Envy for today. The project? Get some tools to take over a place, rule it with iron fists... and, get Pride to come away from the mirror for three minutes to help us out. Dictator hats and awesome triumphal arches don't design themselves.

However, the tools might feel like using a little pragmatism in the project, because they actually want to hold the land they take. They combat the "ride in, steal everything that is not nailed down/ pump it 'till it runs dry, burn it to the ground, build awesome statues to ourselves, fluff it and ride off" approach with all little judiciously applied Charity (welfare has its uses), Temperance (let's lay off the chemicals that'll take years to get out of the ground, bunker-busters, cluster bombs and white phosphorus, yeah? drones and awesome strategy are good) and Prudence (if we're going to hold this place, we might want to do a ton of research now into how to run it well enough to not face insurrection every two days later — just saying).

The situation will still suck, but at least it's not going to be a wave of Ironborn attempting to take places they can't hold. It will likely be a curate's Aegon I, though.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 18th 2018 at 12:48:30 PM

Evil Virtues in a nutshell.

Pragmatic Villainy in general seems to acknowledge that indulging in your urge to commit sin all the time isn't going to end well. But they won't deny themselves permanently — they are villains, after all. No Evil Overlord, even the most pragmatic ones who have memorized the List by heart, is going to deny their inner Card-Carrying Villain forever.

I imagine an Evil Overlord torturing an innocent family for kicks as a personal "reward" for accomplishing some pragmatic Evil Plan, much like how people on diets and exercise programs have cheat days.

Edited by M84 on Oct 18th 2018 at 7:51:17 PM

Pragmatic Hero-ism, too: committing an ickle bit of Sin now to convert it to a Virtue, later.

Frankly, the two concepts of "Sin" and "Virtue" can be good, bad and everything in between — it's the situation they are applied in that counts, not just the motivation of the sinner/do-gooder.

I'd argue that the worst of the worst are the Well-Intentioned Extremist types who never realise how badly they've screwed everybody over because of their blinkers. Because they didn't mean for it to turn out that way, and they're not seeing it for what it is. The ones who covered what they were doing in good intentions, though: those I actually despise a little less. At least they knew going in what they were actually standing for (Me, Myself and I!), even if they lied through their teeth about it, and may genially not have expected the exact degree of suckage they helped cause.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 18th 2018 at 1:04:03 PM

The traits of a Pragmatic Hero don't really have much to do with any Sin though, except maybe Sloth — as in being too slothful to think of a better way to do things.

A vicious Anti-Hero would be a better fit. Someone who ends up doing good, fueled by their Wrath. Though that same Wrath means they sometimes cause unintentional collateral damage.

I guess one can think of it this way: the Virtues tend to benefit the things they are applied to, though they also tend to make things more boring. The Sins tend to corrupt and ruin the things they are applied to, though they also tend to make things more immediately gratifying.

Edited by M84 on Oct 18th 2018 at 8:04:44 PM

sigh Why people really believe that being selfish but "honest" is better than being well intentioned but misguised?

Like. Most of the worse IRL dictators were the ones that were self centered or with motivations where calling it altruism is a stretch (if I kill this ethnic group, things would be better! Because I really dislike this group). The URSS is a shining example, Lenin was—to be blunt— a loosy person at best, is very debatable how well he performed against the Provisional Goverment, Well Meaning person with a lot of crimes. But when the more openly selfish Stalin gets into power? URSS goes full dystopia.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 18th 2018 at 7:11:00 AM

But, Pragmatic Hero is all about being pragmatic with the heroism. Which means as much "holding back from doing the immediate jumping in to DO GOOD stuff to actually work out how to do that, first" as it does "letting a little bad thing happen, because expecting perfection is going to shoot everything in the foot" or "letting myself get all Wrathful here will help protect there".

Judicious Greed can be Good: it's a gut-motivation.

An Anti-Hero will find it easier to be Pragmatic, sure. But, Lawful Good ain't stupid if done right, either. Vimes... always and forever.

I said "a little less" — I like the guy who fucks me over to be identifiable up front for what he is. It's less of a shock when they do. It's the people who fuck you over and tell you it's for your own good, and that you should be grateful for everything they've done for you (because anybody else would be worse, worse, worse) that tend to get my goat way more. /ex-African

Appealing to Greed can get people who wouldn't otherwise help into getting their butts moving. Carrot-and-stick kind of needs a carrot. And, Greed is all about carrots.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 18th 2018 at 1:34:37 PM

Doubt how "Greed" would be helpful by refraining yourself. Waiting for the right time is already a virtue.

And about anger being good. Unless you're having a rage fueled superpower, it really doesn't help.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 18th 2018 at 7:17:32 AM

The way you describe pragmatic heroes make it sound like they are looking for excuses to indulge in Sin even when they know it is wrong and justify it with a Greater Good.

Edited by M84 on Oct 18th 2018 at 8:18:14 PM

So, being angry at the injustice of the world isn't remotely Wrathful? Even if you feel a little justified in punching the face of a bully in? Taken to extremes, wrath is always bad.

Just as Charity taken to extremes is bad. Heck, Temperance taken to extremes is also bad — you can Golden Mean yourself into horrible difficulties if you try.

Nope. I don't recall suggesting that they are busy going looking. But, when a sin comes up, they convert it to a good by using it, rather than by simply denying its existence or trying to stamp it out. It's the judo approach to Doing Good — use all the tools the best way you can and in the way that'll work without you accidentally pulling a muscle or breaking them.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 18th 2018 at 1:30:11 PM

I'd think that self restraint would fall under temperance. And with the Pragmatic Hero point, I don't think that is requires major confessions morality wise, just that they try to "look at the bigger picture" and whatnot.

Edit:The thing with the sins is that while they may not instantly make one a terrible person, they tend towards corrupting people. There are times where they can be beneficial, but those are rare. I'd compare it to poisons that end up benefitting one in some way. Wrath is one of the sins (the other being pride) that is often used in a positive light. However, it is when they go out of control that they become dangerous not only towards oneself but others.

Edited by Kakuzan on Oct 18th 2018 at 8:27:45 AM

Wrath usually specifically refers to vengeful anger, not any anger in general.

Yup.

The most important trait for a pragmatic hero to avoid falling is Humility. They should think of the compromises they make as failings on their part and resolve to do better. Above all else they should not take Pride in being pragmatic.

Edited by M84 on Oct 18th 2018 at 8:35:28 PM

A little pride in doing a good job well is OK. Loads of pride in yourself for being awesome because you're doing Good (even if it's in nasty ways)... not so much, yeah.

As stated: Pragmatic Heroes will use all the tools just as much as Pragmatic Villains will. Which means using both the Virtues and the Sins.

What sets them apart is why and how they're using all the tools — and which side of the toolbox they reach into more.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 18th 2018 at 1:41:58 PM

Uh. You talk as the sins are tools. They're not, they're, well, sins. A negative on themselves. They're not just personality traits, they're flaws at best.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 18th 2018 at 7:48:42 AM

A pragmatic hero never forgets that they are indeed flaws. It helps keep them from being the Well-Intentioned Extremist.

Edited by M84 on Oct 18th 2018 at 8:54:02 PM

OK — technically, I live and breathe the sin of Sloth better than just about anybody I know. I don't go out much, I don't do much, I start projects I can't finish and I rely on other people to keep me straight. I'm a parasite, as far as many people are concerned: mostly take and little give. A waste of space. I can't keep a job for longer than three weeks, it's that bad.

I happen to have CFS, but most people will focus on all the things they think I ought to be able to do because nothing about me is so obviously badly broken that, to their minds, I couldn't do them if I really wanted to, so I must be actively choosing to avoid doing them... without looking at how often I will do them poorly or not at all before breaking down for months at a time because I triggered a relapse to a lower baseline of general wakefulness by trying to do All Of The Things.

Sin is bad. Thus we are all taught. And, it's not wrong: actively choosing to be a pain for others is bad for everybody. I get it.

Sloth is bad. Doing nothing pulls everybody around you down. I know. I've seen its effects firsthand.

Asking for a handout when you can otherwise make do is stealing. I get it.

I have literally had people tell me to my face that because I don't do things that I know full well I will pay for with ill health later... that I am de facto, bad. A sinner. A failure. Not a proper recipient of Charity, because other people deserve help more than I do, since I'll just waste it by doing nothing positive with it. (For me, a day I don't feel like a dishrag and can make it up the stairs without being dizzy for an hour afterwards is something positive). And, I can't argue otherwise: there are people out there in worse situations than I am in, and who could do more that others deem socially acceptable with what they receive.

I am not in dire need. (I sometimes am, but hey — not by the metrics being used to classify these things, because regularly occurring, episodic periods of downright awful don't count if you can, apparently, muddle through the rest of the time. Also, you are verbally dextrous — that's good... so, you're golden. Yay... that helps me drive without the very strong risk of slamming into walls at speed because brain fog helped me get the distance and speed all wrong.)

It's not helpful to view sin as Always Bad. Too much of a thing ain't a good thing: but, sometimes... you don't get a lot of choice about how much of a thing you get. And, I got a lot of Sloth. Be glad I'm a Sloth-hog: means there's less for you.

Pride can also be the same way: a narcissistic personality didn't ask for what they got given. And, they need a ton of help all through their lives not to let it get away with them (because they really are not capable of spotting when they're going over the top themselves). Help they won't, generally, get — even if they are aware enough of the problem to ask for it. Because... nothing is obviously broken.

A lot of the sins... aren't always sinful aspects of the human condition. Sometimes, they're actual illnesses with either known or unknown causes and factors behind them. As are virtues: somebody who feels exuberant all the time and is happy to help everybody and gives their stuff to the deserving at the drop of a hat... might be bipolar and needs help. But, they're just really wonderful people who do good things...

The virtues are wonderful... until they also start hurting, too. Because... well... Charity is wonderful. Unless its used like a bludgeon, or suddenly withdrawn from on high as "motivation" or is... you know... bipolar disorder draining the savings of the person who has it.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 18th 2018 at 2:46:49 PM

Sloth is always a bad thing. It is just a matter of degree. A little evil is still evil, after all. But if it is Poke the Poodle level, the only people who would give you shit over it are likely themselves Prideful jerks. Especially if they know you have a handicap.

Edited by M84 on Oct 18th 2018 at 9:24:40 PM