How do the dominant cultural narratives in art and mass media affect our politics?

Because....they are the people.

The people fighting for themselves.

What's the problem?

At the end of the day, a representative will never have as much authority over a man as the man himself to determine his own destiny.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:15:17 AM

That is not democracy. At all. That is like supporting the idea that we should kick out Trump with force.

First off no, they aren't "the people". That is cut-and-dry incorrect. You're advocating for the very thing you claimed to dislike.

Second, in the specific case of the Middle East you have the issue that the dictators those countries apparently preferred A) weren't actually preferred and B) when they were, destabilized every country around them.

If you really think it's okay to install a tyrant just because it's popular I don't know what to tell you. You're basically saying we should have let the Nazis rise to power because hey, that's what Germany wanted.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:21:37 AM

Well, the First Order isn't Trump unless we find out Supreme Leader Snoke was elected by First Order citizens. It's a group which mounted a terrorist attack on the capital, slaughtered the public's representatives, and imposed a galaxy-spanning tyranny.

Now the people are exerting their will against tyranny.

The Everyman vs. The Tyrant.

Democracy is the Happily Ever After you get for fighting for your right to vote.

Mind you, I preferred it when it was stated Leia and the Resistance are New Republic partisans fighting a deniable war against the First Order with the NR's support. It's just not nearly as much as it needs. That gives it a legitimacy greater than even the Alliance.

How are they not the people? They're ordinary citizens of the galaxy fighting against Nazis. The French Revolution and other partisan movements against tyrants.

I'm not sure what your argument is because you contradict it in two paragraphs.

1. You suggest they aren't actually popular. 2. You argue if they are popular, it doesn't matter.

Which is it?

I believe people should have a right to choose their own government and if they choose tyrannies, it's fucked up and you can't have democracy. A good democracy needs a bill of rights.

But there's no way to have a good democracy without the will of the people. It's right there in the name.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:28:27 AM

Recall what the French Revolution became. The Reign of Terror.

Yep and the public chose to rally behind Napoleon.

Who was one of the worst tyrants in history despite his Historical Hero Upgrade.

He also returned slavery.

The fail state of democracy is the people choosing not to participate. It's why any democratic fiction should make sure to advocate the public has a responsibility to it, not the reverse.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:30:00 AM

Using the terms Lawful Good and tyrant seem to be a bit oxymoronic. Yeah, there are plenty arguments to be made about putting too much faith and power into one person is flawed, but I still don't see why a supposed Lawful Good monarch would be a tyrant.

If they don't rule with the people's consent, they're a tyrant.

Flat out, if they rule a person without their consent, they should be killed. It doesn't matter if the people are witch burning monsters and he's a liberal reformer.

He's a monster because there is nothing more vile than imposing your will on a people. For better or worse.

I believe in democracy and that means believing in the People.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:33:51 AM

Yeah, not the best example here.

Empowered individuals aren't representative of the public, no matter how you slice it. That's something democracy specifically rejects.

Points A and B were about different countries, not the same one.

Democracy is the empowering of the individual. With votes and protections. It exists only as long as when a monarch or dictator or military leader is dragged out into the street, beaten to death, and spit on by the public.

It is the rejection of all authority by the public but by the public for the public.

It is the call not to be afraid.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:34:06 AM

Yes, the public. Not single superempowered individuals acting unilaterally.

You're contradicting your own arguments here.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:35:07 AM

A good example of what I'm talking about is the movie version of the Hunger Games. There, it's made very clear that the revolution is asking multiple things of the public. Katniss may be the symbol of the revolution but the public itself is required to not only refuse to obey the Capital but they must be prepared to DIE for making sure the Capital cannot re-establish authority. Some really great moments being where they charge into the line of fire and know 100% they're not going to make it but are going to make sure the people behind them are able to get the guys with the guns.

We need more fiction like this.

Fiction where the people who are working for self-rule and democracy are prepared to give their lives to make sure tyrants fall and refuse to give in to non-elected authority.

Yes, the public. Not single superempowered individuals acting unilaterally.

You're contradicting your own arguments here.

So, what do the people do in the face of the First Order?

How do they express their desire for free rule and rejection of fascism?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:37:36 AM

Well, not disbanding the military their democratic state operated might have been a good first step.

They weren't disbanded, they were killed.

There's plenty of military coups and other actions in RL that result in the death of governments.

But I'm cool if the statement is here, "I don't believe any narrative can be pro-democracy if the democracy is overthrown early in the process."

A valid argument I accept if don't entirely agree with.

Not to be insulting. But given that Unknowing is here too.

...that line is basically Latino Leftist dictator 101.

I don't think anyone here was making that point, let's not start with strawmen.

The issue everyone has been repeatedly pointing out to you is that the whole "democracies can't do anything, we need empowered individuals to act unilaterally" thing is an inherently undemocratic concept that writers often try to deploy in favor of democracy, not realizing they're undermining their own message.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 17th 2018 at 9:49:25 AM

I am confused at what your point is. I'm not trying to strawman it. That wasn't me being snide, I thought that was what you were saying.

???

As for that, the people have a right to defend themselves and the Resistance represents the popular resistance against the tide of fascism. They are the people who elect the representatives in a democracy.

Who else would a democracy represent but the people?

You say, "unilaterally" and "empowered" but yes, the existence of a fascist power automatically empowers any and all people to resist it. A unelected fascist regime can have no legitimate authority. The death of the legitimate government means that the public has an obligation to resist every single First Order command and do harm to them if they can. Democracy is not just a right, it is an obligation.

The Resistance are the will of the people resisting with their popular mandate....given by them because they are the people who are citizens of a democracy overthrown by fascists.

I mean, it's Star Wars. The Rebellion is the public, the Empire The Empire.

Republicans also say they're pro-freedom. Dictators often co-opt the language of those resisting oppression.

Why Orwell is still relevant despite all the stuff he got wrong, I think.

I am fully aware revolutions often can put in even worse people, though.

Edit:

In any case, good talk people. I think you all raised some really valid points. You also pointed a lot of flaws in my argument which is a bit revolutionary-leaning and perhaps overly radical.

Still, it was the way I was raised. I'll think on my politics a bit more and their implications.

I do think it's interesting the Sequel Trilogy has gotten so much flack for the rehashing of the Fascist vs. Democratic ideal but I also think the Prequels left a sour taste in the mouth of fans because it didn't seem the Republic was worth fighting for,

In the ST, it seems like it was a lost Golden Age which was just too idealistic.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 17th 2018 at 10:18:33 AM

Moving on to something else, this content creator I follow recently explained why he shifted his style when he transitioned from Blip to Youtube. It got me thinking about something that was brought up a few days ago on this thread that I want to revisit. How do you think things like socioeconomic status and other external factors influence the way we produce media? I believe that George Orwell had to make Animal Farm into more of an allegory rather than a straight representation due to (please correct me if I'm wrong) being rejected multiple times since England didn't exactly want to anger the Soviet Union.

They didn't want to anger the Soviet Union in the Cold War?

Animal Farm was written during WW 2 when Britain was allied with the Soviets. It took a year or two for it to get published.

Gotcha.

My ignorance is corrected.

Anti-Soviet propaganda was incredibly unpopular during WW 2. Public mood only started shifting afterwards.

As to how revolutionary-leaning fiction can influence politics...well, it was a factor in people supporting Trump or Sanders. The whole "Anti-establishment" thing. They figured that by casting a ballot against "Shillary" they were striking a blow for FREEDOM. Or at least that's what they told themselves to avoid owning up to their racism/sexism/whatever.

Which makes sense. You don't want to spit in the faces of allies, even if it is just an Enemy Mine situation which everyone deep down knows won't last.

Edited by M84 on Aug 19th 2018 at 3:18:52 AM

Some thoughts on popular democracies in non-Star Wars:

• Mass Effect: It's interesting we have the Obstructive Bureaucrat AND Crooked Politician tropes with the Citadel Council. Also, Specters are the Secret Police with a Licensed To Kill. However, the Citadel culture and Alliance are all depicted as exceptionally worth saving as they are the only people who can stand up to the Reapers. Cerberus is depicted as maybe having the right idea but in ME 3, they immediately end up as The Quisling and completely under the control of evil.
• Battlestar Galactica: The reboot made the conflict between military and civilian control a central element. Yet, it always went down on the side of Roslin since she was Moses.
• Halo: I actually think this is a bad example since it's EU more or less makes the Earth a puppet of ONI. All indications is Earth is shitty to its colonies and once it's no longer endangered by extinction, plans to become The Empire. Mind you, Halo 4 and 5 are dumpster fires so the EU is forced to follow suit.
• Firefly: Forget the Confederacy apologia for a moment and note the Alliance is ostensibly supposed to be a democracy but pretty much stomps on worlds and performs all manner of evil experiments. It's probably the worst of the bunch, especially since Independents don't seem capable of voting.
• Destiny: There's a faction which is devoted to destroying democracy and selecting a king (which they argue is fine since Guardians are immortal and established as wise). Unless you have the now-down Grimoire, you would probably be surprised to find out the Last City is a democracy with a Parliament (called the Assembly or something). I thought it was a theocracy with the Speaker in charge.
• Star Trek: Am I alone in being bothered that Star Trek's government has appeared twice in the whole of fiction? Once in the Undiscovered Country and the other time when they were arguing about Kirk blowing up a planet?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2018 at 12:48:50 PM

Science fiction stories in general don't seem to be very keen on democracy. Maybe that says something about the politics of a lot of sci-fi writers. I'm reminded of Robert Heinlein in particular.