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Ultimatum ◕_ ◕ Disasturbator from England Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕_ ◕ Disasturbator
Jan 11th 2019 at 7:18:22 AM

I feel Lady Gaga not speaking sooner was probably so she didn't get labelled a snitch,especially by his defenders and others in the music industry,someone else had to point the fingers before she was free to condemn him

🌟 The answer eludes me still,how bothersome
whizzerd Don't eat humans, okay? from Scotland Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Don't eat humans, okay?
Jan 11th 2019 at 8:18:49 AM

You know, this post raises a good point that i've noticing, white characters really get too easy with being The Woobie while non-white characters generally have to have way more screentime to be considered worth in fandoms.

One of the shows the article mentioned is Teen Wolf, which is one I watcheddisclaimer  and thus had some leeway into its fandom at the time, so I can attest to the levels of unsympathetic double standards that the non-white characters faced when they experienced trauma.

Just for one example: the main character, Scott McCall, is Latino. One of the main villains, Theo, is white. Theo manipulates all of Scott's friends into hating him, and then sets it up so that one of them literally kills Scott (he gets better because werewolf magic). Surely the sympathy is in Scott's court for this, right? Well, no, the fandom got angry at Scott because he was really mean to Theo about the whole 'killing him and screwing with his friends' thing. Scott isn't even allowed to feel angry about the fact that he was killed, but his white friend can feel sad for killing him and get sympathy from the fans, and Theo and every other white villain can do whatever they want without remorse and still have fans who'll defend and sympathise with them.

That's just the first example that comes to mind. There were many more instances of fans being unsympathetic towards Scott or even trying to demonise him- even though the entire point of his character is his development into an altruistic Ideal Hero- or the other non-white members of the cast, while simultaneously fussing over the quirky white sidekicks or the white villains whether they deserve it or not.

reset myself and get back on track — goes by they/them, not he/him or she/her.
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Jan 11th 2019 at 8:42:25 AM

I feel Lady Gaga not speaking sooner was probably so she didn't get labelled a snitch,especially by his defenders and others in the music industry,someone else had to point the fingers before she was free to condemn him

That's... an unreasonably rosy view of Gaga there.

To be frank, I'm honestly not sure if there was need for a condemnation from her; I don't necessarily think she's so closely associated to Kelly that she had to denounce him.

That said, "worried about being labeled a snitch"? Aside from the fact that she's a powerhouse in the music industry, other people have pointed the fingers at him. Back in 2002. Or back in May when the whole #Mute R Kelly thing happened.

Ultimatum ◕_ ◕ Disasturbator from England Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕_ ◕ Disasturbator
Jan 11th 2019 at 8:59:11 AM

I mean yeah it is a little rosy,she waited ages to speak out,why not speak out before the doc is aired?

🌟 The answer eludes me still,how bothersome
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:21:03 AM

I’m guessing cause she didn’t feel like getting involved until she was forced to. For someone supposedly edgy and ready for controversy, she strikes me as someone who doesn’t stick her neck out much. And working with him in 2013 and making awful statements about him being followed by rumors is still disgusting. The information was widely known and available! Trying to be provocative is not a solid excuse when doing so throws black women and girls under the bus. And waiting so long to apologize doesn’t help.

Ultimatum ◕_ ◕ Disasturbator from England Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕_ ◕ Disasturbator
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:29:06 AM

So basically she's an opportunist,and took to condemning only after she saw there was some good publicity involved

🌟 The answer eludes me still,how bothersome
KazuyaProta I warned you, Human!! from A dying Earth Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
I warned you, Human!!
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:34:16 AM

To whizzerd: Oh yeah, I mean exactly things like this. A latino is the victim of a white but he is supossed to forgive him?

Watch me destroying my country
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:36:27 AM

Frankly, I am starting to feel uncomfortable with those kind of discussions. I don't think that anyone has an obligation to condemn someone else unless said person is in a position where the condemning actually makes a major difference (and not just in a "oh, that's a celebrity and everyone listens to them" kind of way, in an actual position of power directly relating to the situation at hand).

Always keep in mind that one should be careful about judging someone you don't know personally.

Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:36:42 AM

In fairness, I think that's more just the fandom's tendency towards Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater. A much clearer example would be where it's two villains and the white one gets Draco'd and the other one doesn't.

[up] I'm inclined to agree to a point. Like I said, I don't know if an apology was strictly speaking necessary. But what I'm saying is that she is getting no credit or bonus points for it from me.

At the same time, I get windleopard's criticism that she either didn't believe or didn't care as late as 2014. That's absolutely worth calling someone out on.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jan 11th 2019 at 12:40:48 PM

Ultimatum ◕_ ◕ Disasturbator from England Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕_ ◕ Disasturbator
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:39:04 AM

> Always keep in mind that one should be careful about judging someone you don't know personally.

You can always judge someone for their actions,or in this case inaction

🌟 The answer eludes me still,how bothersome
M84 Freedom is the right of all sentient beings from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Freedom is the right of all sentient beings
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:56:12 AM

Judging people by what they put out in public — their words and their actions — is completely valid.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:57:31 AM

Yeah- otherwise, you couldn’t judge (and thereby assess) ANYONE except close family and friends. And we have to be able to judge those whom we vote for, or choose to patronize as artists or businesses.

Ultimatum ◕_ ◕ Disasturbator from England Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕_ ◕ Disasturbator
Jan 11th 2019 at 9:59:34 AM

Actions as they say,speak louder then words

Edited by Ultimatum on Jan 11th 2019 at 6:00:01 PM

🌟 The answer eludes me still,how bothersome
Pseudopartition from The Cretaceous Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Jan 11th 2019 at 10:04:44 AM

Frankly, I am starting to feel uncomfortable with those kind of discussions. I don't think that anyone has an obligation to condemn someone else unless said person is in a position where the condemning actually makes a major difference (and not just in a "oh, that's a celebrity and everyone listens to them" kind of way, in an actual position of power directly relating to the situation at hand).
She was in a position of power, though. She choose to collaborate with him, thereby promoting his work through his association with her. It's not like it would have damaged her career to refuse.

Jan 11th 2019 at 10:11:25 AM

There is a difference between judging something based on what said person has done on the internet and judging something based on what said person hasn't done. Plus, especially when it comes to stories like this, it is kind of shifting the blame from the one who actually did something to females who supposedly didn't do enough. There is an element in this I don't like.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 11th 2019 at 10:13:17 AM

Jan 11th 2019 at 10:22:27 AM

Gaga didn't just refuse to condemn Kelly, she flat out defended him against the accusations when they collaborated in 2013:

"R. Kelly and I have, sometimes, very untrue things written about us,” Gaga reportedly said in 2013. “In a way, this was a bond between us. We were able to say, ‘The public, they can have our bodies, but they cannot have our mind or our heart.’ It was a very natural collaboration.”

Also, Gaga is 32 years old right now meaning that her "younger self" was 27 in 2013.

whizzerd Don't eat humans, okay? from Scotland Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Don't eat humans, okay?
Jan 11th 2019 at 10:29:29 AM

It's possible to hold R. Kelly accountable while also scrutinising those who either didn't speak up or outright defended him. No-one is saying that the blame doesn't primarily rest on his shoulders for what he did.

In fairness, I think that's more just the fandom's tendency towards Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater. A much clearer example would be where it's two villains and the white one gets Draco'd and the other one doesn't.

Funny you mention that, because- while I'm not sure of the specifics of how she was treated, I was bowing out the show a little by then- I do know that the villain of the final season, a black woman, received a lot less attention compared to all of the white villains that went before her. Certainly no cries of 'she can be redeemed' or 'but she's only fantastically racist because of the trauma she experienced due to supernatural events'- even though that was a more sympathetic reason for villainy than many of the other villains got.

Anyway, I did point out the other heroic characters like the friends and the sidekicks that didn't receive nearly as much flack from the fans. It's just, for 'some reason', the Latino lead whose trauma was ignored and whose actions were demonised while his cadre of white friends and white antagonists earned sympathy at the drop of a hat.

reset myself and get back on track — goes by they/them, not he/him or she/her.
Jan 11th 2019 at 10:33:20 AM

So what, she knew him personally and therefore didn't believe the accusations back then, but now she is apparently convinced.

Accusations like those are often way more difficult on friends and family than the accused. Because the accused at least knows exactly if he is guilty or not. Friends, family and people working with said person are put into a position in which they are trapped between their loyalty towards a close one and what is said about them.

You know, we kind of expect that those close to us would stand by us if we are accused of something. We can't expect that we get this trust but then blame other people for extending this kind of trust to other people.

Plus, I never really cared about Lady Gaga, partly because I found the attention she got quite annoying, but I do remember that in the past there were a number of stories about her which were very, well, invasive and most likely made up.

Jan 11th 2019 at 10:36:29 AM

So what, she knew him personally and therefore didn't believe the accusations back then, but now she is apparently convinced.

Accusations like those are often way more difficult on friends and family than the accused. Because the accused at least knows exactly if he is guilty or not. Friends, family and people working with said person are put into a position in which they are trapped between their loyalty towards a close one and what is said about them.

She was not a personal friend. The allegations were in 1998-2002, and there was graphic video evidence available. He was not close to her; she asked him to be on her song. Let’s not give white women passes for ignoring the very well-documented pain of black girls, shall we?

Lyendith I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane! from Bègles, France Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane!
Jan 11th 2019 at 10:49:12 AM

And let's not add the skin-color argument into this, please… Whether Gaga or the victims are black or white is irrelevant.

Flippé de participer à ce grand souper, je veux juste m'occuper de taper mon propre tempo.
Jan 11th 2019 at 10:52:15 AM

It absolutely is not. If R. Kelly was abusing 14 year old white girls on video, he would have gone to prison. One of the jurors explicitly admitted he didn’t like/trust the victims because of how they talked and dressed. Gaga has been an advocate against sexual assault- in 2015, she did a song for a documentary about rape on college campuses. Yet in 2013 she didn’t believe the many, many reports about R. Kelly.

Edited by wisewillow on Jan 11th 2019 at 1:54:25 PM

Jan 11th 2019 at 10:53:47 AM

Oh...okay, I assumed that she either knew him personally or only knew that he was accused and got free without knowing that the reason why was that proof against him was thrown out.

[up] And you know that because you apparently paid close attention to the case. I didn't even know what the skin colour of his victims was. You can't assume that everyone knows about all this in detail.

In any case, I think there is too much made out of her apology...in both directions. It neither makes her a better nor a worse person. As usual when it comes to Lady Gaga, there is too much made out of what is basically a non-story. Above all, because we don't know what was going on her mind back then outside of her own claims.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 11th 2019 at 10:56:00 AM

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Jan 11th 2019 at 10:55:34 AM

Green Book Writer Nick Vallelonga Faces Stop Sign—Deletes Twitter Following Backlash Over 2015 Anti-Muslim Tweet .

There’s no sugar-coated way to say it— Green Book is in deep shit.

...

“I want to apologize,” said Vallelonga, per Indie Wire. “I spent my life trying to bring this story of overcoming differences and finding common ground to the screen and I am incredibly sorry to everyone associated with Green Book. I especially deeply apologize to the incredibly brilliant and kind Mahershala Ali and all members of the Muslim faith for the hurt I have caused. I am also sorry to my late father who changed so much from Dr. Shirley’s friendship and I promise this lesson is not lost on me. Green Book is a story about love, acceptance and overcoming barriers, and I will do better.”

Meh.

Also, regarding Lady Gaga: she says she was young at the time, but a) she was 27, and b) she performed with R. Kelly in 2013. People had known that Kelly was a damn predator even before that. To hell with Lady Gaga. She knew what she was doing at the time, and not only is it really gross that she's using her own trauma as an excuse, but Gaga has a history of this kind of bullshit. Anyone else remember when, after the Charlottesville rally, she took to Twitter to ask "OMG what are we white people supposed to do?" Also...THIS QUOTE.

R. Kelly and I have sometimes very untrue things written about us, so in a way this was a bond between us. That we were able to say, the public, they can have our bodies, but they cannot have our mind or our heart. It was a really natural collaboration. - Lady Gaga, 2013 Japanese Press Conference

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Jan 11th 2019 at 11:01:22 AM

I remember in the early days of the show, the Vampire Diaries fandom really hated Bonnie (who was black) for being the most consistently critical and untrusting of Damon. This despite the fact that Damon's deeds included:

  • Killed his own descendant Zach.

  • Killing Jeremy, the brother of Elena (the girl he supposedly loved). Jeremy may have gotten better, but still

  • Turned Vicki, Matt's sister, into a vampire and repeatedly encouraged her to give into her bloodlust resulting in Stefan having to kill her.

  • Got Stefan's long time friend killed to keep vampire hunters off his tracks for the murders he committed.

Hell, even the writers got in on the leather pantsing. In the 100th episode, Matt blames Vicki getting turned into a vampire on reoccuring antagonist Katherine by saying it was Katherine's fault that Damon was in town somehow.

Edited by windleopard on Jan 11th 2019 at 11:02:02 AM

Jan 11th 2019 at 11:04:47 AM

Fans do that all the time, though. They latch on characters and then get defensive of them. Kal Drogo is a child molester and not much better than a rapist, and yet the Go T fans still adore him and the actor who played him. (not that I dismiss the idea that for some this is a racial thing...most likely for more than they are ready to admit. But I think that there is more at play there than just that. The way fans can rationalize terrible things characters do just because they like them is often terrifying).

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 11th 2019 at 11:13:15 AM


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