Diversity and Representation in Media

I still think that the twist is along with the sky jumping scene the best part of an otherwise messy movie, exactly because it takes the yellow Peril thing heads on. I also think though that Maria Hansen should have been the "real Mandarin". But I like the general message about Feindbilder way too much...the only thing I can see is that they maybe should have cast an Chinese actor in the role of the fake Mandarin instead of Ben Kingsley in an "Asian doesn't equal Asian" kind of way. Ben Kingsley is in a lot of ways the save choice (even if he is brilliant in the role).

In general though I would prefer for marvel to add more Asian characters on the hero side of things. It is too early for Amadeus Cho, but should they be able to do a Namor movie, I hope they cast an Asian Actor in the role.

One doesn't try to address Yellow Peril issues by not hiring a Chinese actor. Marvel screwed the pooch on this front with IM 3.

Once (IM 3) is an accident, twice (Daredevil) is a coincidence, three times (Doctor Strange) is "someone high up at Marvel really doesn't like Asian people".

As for Namor...while I'd prefer it if Marvel's first Asian movie headliner played a character who was actually Asian in the comics as opposed to being half-white and half-fictional race whose origin wasn't "scary-ass foreigner out to destroy the USA"...at least we'd have an Asian actor being the lead in a Marvel movie.

Edited by M84 on Jul 18th 2018 at 4:48:26 PM

Tbf, they can always alter Namor's personality for the movie. The Nick Fury in the movies is less of a prick than his comic counterparts, especially the Ultimate version.

It'd have to be a lot of Adaptational Heroism, given that Namor's a poster boy for the Heel–Face Revolving Door.

I'm curious to see if they hire a half-Asian character to play him, given his origin as the son of a guy from Boston Leonard Mc Kenzie and the Atlantean Princess Fen.

And yes, that means Namor's full name is Namor Mc Kenzie.

Edited by M84 on Jul 18th 2018 at 5:02:44 PM

Honestly my wish for him to be Asian is mostly born out of what is already in the MCU...for one I kind of assume that Namor is an Inhuman (because it would make sense - and yes, I know that he is a mutant in the comics, but Inhuman DNA works just as well if not better for him), and I also would think that the ideal location for Atlantis is the Mariana Trench because if there is one place where it is believable that Atlantis is located without having been discovered yet, it is there.

Plus, he looks kind of Asian.

I also think that there is a lot of potential for the character to be a sympathetic antagonist and sometimes ally. I mean considering what humans do to the planet, especially the ocean, a folk living under water would have plenty of reasons to be angry. Between overfishing, wal-killing, finning, poisoning the water with plastic and plans (which thankfully never came to fruition) to use the Marianna trench as a dumping ground for nuclear waste, it is hard no to say that the humans are honestly the bad guy in this kind of interaction. So I can see him doing some eco terrorism (of the targeted kind) while also being ready to defend the earth if necessary.

Plus, at least until the Fox deal is through, it is not like Marvel has that many options unless they do some race-bending or go really obscure. Outside of Amadeus Cho and Ms Marvel all the other Asian Superheroes, like Jubilee and Dusk, are all X-men.

Edited by Swanpride on Jul 18th 2018 at 2:30:04 AM

Like I said, while it'd be better if Marvel's first movie with an Asian star actor had him playing someone who was Asian in the comics as opposed to someone who only looks "kind of Asian"...it'd still be a step in the right direction.

It doesn't matter who he is in the comics, nobody knows that his surname is supposed to be Mc Kenzie anyway. Just say his father was some Inhuman from the Philippines and change the surname, voila. Some of the die hard comic book fans will complain but I don't think that the general audience will care as long as the actor casts kind of looks like Namor.

Or you could have his dad be an Asian-American guy from Boston.

Why does every other hero to be American? There is no reason to spread it out a little bit. Plus, this way you could insert some cultural quirks into him which aren't American.

Just because his father is American doesn't mean he will be. He could still be raised Atlantean which is how it was in the comics.

If his father is American and he is raised in Atlantis, then you diminish the potential for representation. There are already Asian Americans in the MCU. There is a distinct lack of actual Asians.

Doesn't Wong count?

There are a grand total of three major Asian-American characters throughout Marvel's movies. And two of those are from the X-movies (Lady Deathstrike in X2 and Agent Zero in X-Men Origins: Wolverine) which aren't part of the MCU. Leaving Jim Morita ("I'm from Fresno, Ace") from First Avenger as the sole Asian-American major side character in the MCU.

So one Asian (Wong) and one Asian-American (Jim Morita). They're tied.

Edited by M84 on Jul 18th 2018 at 8:15:35 PM

Define "Asian" and define "major."

Because you're leaving a few people out. Ned Leeds would definitely count (Filapino actor, major side character in Homecoming), Jimmy Woo (Asian-American, no idea if he's important or not), Principal Morita (hilariously minor), Hogun (Asian-Alien? That counts for something, though I'd understand omitting it from your count), Mantis (Ditto!).

Right, I forgot about Jimmy Woo. The movie he plays a role in only came out recently and I haven't had a chance to see it yet.

Ned Leeds...yeah, that's my bad. TBF I didn't have a chance to watch Homecoming either.

And yes, I did omit Hogun and Mantis on purpose.

Edited by M84 on Jul 18th 2018 at 9:33:26 PM

Oh, and then there's the Korean broad in Avengers Age Of Ultron who... I don't know, counts for something.

Like, they went through the trouble of Remember the New Guy? and she's apparently a friend to the Avengers on the same level as Maria Hill, her technology is the crux of Ultron's plan, and when she's reintroduced someone goes "Has anyone heard from Korean Lady?" like they keep in touch.

Yet everything about the film kinda makes her about as forgettable and background-y as possible. I feel like somewhere in the making of the film there was a disagreement on how important she was supposed to be. I'm guessing the script featured her more and the direction and editing disagreed.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jul 18th 2018 at 9:41:35 AM

Yeah, Dr. Helen Cho is a regrettably forgettable character.

So let's compare Asians and Asian-Americans with plot importance included.

Ned Leeds (Asian-American — important side character)

Jim Morita (Asian-American — important side character)

Jimmy Woo (Asian-American — important(?) side character)

Principal Morita (Asian-American — so unimportant he doesn't even warrant a first name)

Wong (Asian — important side character)

Dr. Helen Cho (Asian — important yet forgettable side character)

Okay so it's 4 vs. 2. Though I'm hesitant to count Principal Morita given his lack of plot importance.

Edited by M84 on Jul 18th 2018 at 9:53:13 PM

I don't know anything about Hogun, but Mantis wasn't victim of Chickification (compared to her comic counterpart) as well? (Chickification for itself is messy, but when done to a asian-coded character...oh boy)

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 18th 2018 at 9:20:06 AM

Mantis in the comics was very much an action oriented fighter and a master martial artist in addition to a bunch of psychic powers.

Movie Mantis...not so much.

Comics Mantis was also human, being half-Vietnamese and half-German and had Vietnamese citizenship.

Edited by M84 on Jul 18th 2018 at 10:27:29 PM

Eh. Sorta. She was more of a hand-to-hand fighter and while the comic doesn't have the Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow personality angle, it did have Asian Hooker Stereotype factor into her backstory (seriously, she was trained from birth to fight... and then had her mind erased and sent to be a hooker to "gain world experience" or something). Oh, and her importance in terms of the Cosmic scheme of things is that she was destined to give birth to the Celestial Messiah. Not be the Messiah. Just give birth to the real hero.

Also, her SLEEEEEEEEEEEEP has been more useful than her comic combat role of "kicking stuff."

So yeah. So many bullets dodged there, not going to lie. If you want to judge Mantis (and there's plenty of reasons to), but don't do it in relation to the comic version.

Though I'm hoping that Vol. 3 gives her more agency, something along the fact that she more or less made the Guardians of the Galaxy by subconsciously manipulating the members into going along with Star-Lord's idea. Possibly something about how the Guardians would've broken up by Vol. 3 but she was keeping them together by low-key brainwashing them. Though them being so easy to break up would really hurt the whole "family" angle.

Mantis was the point where my opinion of the MCU' treatment of asians moved from "insensitive" to "actively racist against Asians".

It's really a painful mess.

Ok. That was painful to read too. However, I think that there many ways to remove those issues without making her The Chick (there nothing wrong with being The Chick, is just that when she is a Asian-coded female and the only one...)

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 18th 2018 at 9:49:42 AM

Agreed. Just have to point out that there's this narrative going around that the comics version was an empowered Goddess of a character that was chickified into a demure Asian girl.

And here's the thing. I get the chickification. Superhero Speciation is a thing, and if it were accurate to the comics, it would mean having three green characters who fight primarily at melee range. So they play up one of her other abilities, the one that fits the plot the best. And since her backstory is so unfortunate, may as well give her a new personality. Why, may as well make it fit the power and make her naive and sweet.

Not realizing the Unfortunate Implications there is classic MCU, and exactly why we need to take these examples in aggregate, rather than one-by-one. Because on its own, it makes sense. It's a bit tone-deaf, but it's really pretty okay. On its own.

But after Strange's whitewashing? Which on its own, it's really not that bad. The Ancient One isn't even that relevant in the comics anyway.

After not making Danny Rand Asian? On its own it's fine. Hell, I was against making him Asian (then again, I am also really against making him Finn Jones so yeah).

After the erasure of the Mandarin? On its own, I get it. Tie into modern Islamophobia, sidestep Yellow Peril, sure. But it is still erasure.

And then there's Daredevil which was just racist as shit.

Like, there is a pervasive pattern here. At the most kind, you can claim the MCU has a tendency to be willing to throw Asian representation under the bus. But there's so much of it it's impossible to ignore.

If it was just any one or even two of those, it'd be easier to tolerate.

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.

Yeah. At this point is not really a secret conspirancy to erase Asians, is an open intention of doing it.

I imagine that it must be really frustrating. It isn't?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 18th 2018 at 10:16:35 AM

It can be a bit irritating. Particularly when people try to downplay it.