The Islamophobia Thread

Would a rough analogy for the US be race-related comedy when it comes to stereotypes and things like Blackface?

It wouldn't, because black people are treated worse than white people are in every country. Whether Muslims are treated worse than Christians is a matter of which country you're in.

x3 He's been dead for several centuries. It's not him you're attacking.

Much in the same way making transphobic remarks about Caitlyn Jenner harms working and middle class trans people, and not her.

Edited by Bisected8 on Oct 27th 2020 at 5:08:40 PM

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And in the process, also rebelled against the church, which was one of the privileged classes and one of the instruments of the Old Regime's oppression. Which is part of why the right to blaspheme is sacred in France in the first place. The thought of giving power to the church, any church, is abhorrent to me.

Edited by Medinoc on Oct 27th 2020 at 6:11:11 PM

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

When people criticize punching down they are not supporting giving power to a church, they're opposing people denigrating an already discriminated against minority.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:12:05 AM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Calling Mohammed the second most powerful political leader ever is a pretty big stretch. His direct political influence (as it were) mostly extends to the Middle East, parts of Africa and parts of Asia.

Europe and the Americas at large considers Mohammed's sway about on the same level as Alan Kardec. Swerving to "how powerful Mohammed is (in places distant of the sphere of those we are actually talking about)" seems like a left field turn.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Nobody except Jesus has had more influence over how the world is run than Mohammed does. Sure, he might not even be alive anymore, but the world as a whole is definitely influenced by him enormously.

I don't see much point to this argument, no one is saying that Muslims are equally a minority in every country. It's true that there are countries where they are not underprivileged, but that's not exactly relevant if we're talking about France or other Christian-White dominated countries.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

The argument doesn't even make sense because majority black countries exist. Like a lot of them - so I find the notion that black people are treated worse than white people in all of those questioable at best.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 27th 2020 at 6:18:47 PM

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.

Indeed, black people aren't exactly discriminated because of their race in Nigeria.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

That majority black countries exist doesn't mean white people are treated as some sort of lower caste there. Colonialism and its effects reverberate through the world to this day. White people are still treated as equals at least.

Edited by JamesJames on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:20:56 AM

And then you have the Algerians, who were a different kettle of fish altogether. Without getting too long-winded: let's just say that the combination of state terror against Algerian civil pro-independence activists, the resulting brutal civil war that broke the Fourth Republic and left the most radical elements of the Algerian independence movement in charge, the messy exodus of Algerian troops who fought on the French side (Harkis) and the continuous movement of a refugee population over the following few decades of conflict all added up to a uniquely traumatised diaspora population that barely got the help it needed to pull itself together.

I don't think I can say whether things like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons truly belong in a pluralistic society. But to hear your government say that it's part of what the nation is, while the things your parents and community leaders taught you aren't and will have to be "reformed"? I can't imagine anyone taking that well.

And that's not to downplay the actual issue of radical propaganda and distorted information environments, which in this case doesn't sound too far off the QAnon/Pizzagate phenomenon elsewhere. But that's something you address by looking at the structural inequalities underneath, not by lowkey accusing the whole community of being a fifth column.

Also, since all you lovely folks are eager to dive into issues like what religious doctrines say (or don't) about blasphemy, or how exactly Muhammad figures (or doesn't) into modern Islamic practice, here's a reminder that we have a religion thread for that.

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I have no idea who you think you're arguing against. This doesn't contradict anything anyone has said.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Thing is, that wasn't your argument, was it? You claimed that black people are treated worse than white people everywhere.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 27th 2020 at 6:22:47 PM

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.

Yeah, and if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but as far as I know that's always gonna be the case for now in any country.

I'm not saying every country has a lot of racism. But as far as I know, there's at least some racism in every country, and it favors white people over black people much more often than the opposite.

Edited by JamesJames on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:23:57 AM

I fail to see how attacking Islam can ever be considered "punching down", given that in some places in the world, Islam is law, often tyrannically so.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

I still don't understand the relevance. Even if anti-black racism is somehow different than Islamophobic racism that doesn't exactly make the latter any less real. Which is why punching down is bad, you're taking a minority who receives bigotry both structurally and on an individual level and giving them shit.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:29:52 AM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Because you don't live in those places and you're not punching down on those specific Islamic authorities. You're punching down on the immigrant families who came to your homeland with their traditions and get treated like subhumans for it.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Yeah, that's the problem—it's true both that some Muslims are being persecuted and murdered for their faith and that some Muslims are persecuting and murdering others for their faith.

I guess one solution is to always mock a specific group that deserves it. For instance, if you mock ISIS then nobody's gonna assume that you're an Islamophobe, or say you're punching down.

Edited by JamesJames on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:30:27 AM

Using this logic, because Christianity is socially privileged in the United States and France then it cannot be marginalized in majority Muslim countries.

See how it doesn't work logically? Mocking Christian practices has a completely different relation to power in France then it does in Iraq

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:32:38 AM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

I still maintain that attacking Religion itself is very different from attacking the people who follow it.

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And blasphemy, by definition, is the former.

Edited by Medinoc on Oct 27th 2020 at 6:36:29 PM

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

It reminds me of the logic some people apply to justify denying people to build moseques here.

"Well, we can't build churches in (insert Muslim country), so why should they build mosques over here?"

To which my response basically boils down to "And if said country jumped off a cliff, would you follow it?"

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 27th 2020 at 6:34:20 PM

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.

I don't think it's remotely this clear cut.

I'm an Atheist, Atheism doesn't have any kind of tenants or unified beliefs and yet if people shit on it there's a chance I'll feel angry or unhappy about it. Separating mockery of religion and mockery of religious people is not simple or unambiguous.

Well said, it seems like a kind of self-own to admit that you're defining your practices by how Pakistan does things.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:35:26 AM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Another thing: If you risk your life criticizing something, then it's not a plain matter of "punching downwards." If criticizing something puts your life on the line, you can't be said to completely be in a position of power, comparatively.