Vague idea: Possible to write this without being blasphemous?

Warning: Long post, a few of my own thoughts on this subject.

Background (bit personal): I went to a Christian girls' school for the last years of primary school and all of high school. When I was in Year 11 we had some Christian Studies lessons which involved looking at the historical evidence for Jesus and the available sources on his life.

In those classes I ran across the legend/rumour that Mary, mother of Jesus, had had a relationship with a Roman soldier known only as Pant(h)era(sometimes identified as being Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera, a Phoenician archer buried in Germany) and that Jesus was the child of this relationship who grew up in Egypt where he learned magic, then eventually returned to Galilee where he became famous as a miracle-worker who claimed to be the Son of God. It came originally from a 2nd century anti-Christian philosopher called Celsus who was repeating rumours he'd heard IIRC.

(Panthera/Pantera was a common surname for Roman soldiers, and Abdes is a Phoenician name. Both were common.)

Would it be possible to write a fantasy story based on this legend along the lines of the Marjatta cycle which does feature a character who is *like* the Virgin Mary but *isn't* her and avoid Unfortunate Implications?

My idea was inspired by information I found in this bookthat Vinland originally referred to the Fortunate Isles or some kind of earthly paradise somewhere in the far West and that the descriptions of the Skraelings(Dorset/Thule people) are influenced by the usual descriptions for The Fair Folk.

It's basically that "Mary/Miriam/Mariam" is a Skraeling girl named Maaraq who lives in "*Vinland/Insulae Fortunae*" and falls in love with Abdes Pantera, the archer from the fantasy Roman Empire when some soldiers arrive to put down a rebellion. She becomes pregnant and her child, Juoksa ("bow",) grows up to become a revolutionary aand sorcerer who decides to claim the throne of the Fortunate Isles based on his mother's lineage, but is framed on a suspicion of being involved in an assassination plot and all sorts of other activities.

So, might this be doable with some major work, or unavoidably blasphemous and offensive? On one hand, people have been adapting this particular legend for quite a while (Thomas Hardy even wrote a poem about it called "Panthera"), and the Away in a Manger plot is an entry on here, with Christ symbolism being a fairly common thing in characters and plots. OTOH there's a *reason* why religion is such a controversial topic and I don't want to offend people.

Apologies for the long post and for offending anyone.

edited 9th Oct '14 7:44:20 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Well, it's fiction. You are not suggesting that as an actual, valid theory, so it could be considered as offensive or in bad taste by some, but it doesn't reach the levels of blasphemous, I suppose.

Now, since your work seems only inspired by the actual legend (and replaces all figures, settings and such with fantasy equivalents) and not a straight adaptation of it (which would stir problems), I think it's fine.

The only thing you should avoid is making the comparison too obvious. Like making the protagonist too much like Virgin Mary or her son too much like Jesus or the Roman Empire expy too much like the actual Roman Empire (I'd avoid including the "Herod wipes out all newborns" bit, for instance, since it's so iconic to Jesus' tale). Just write your own story and try not to make it too obvious.

To put it bluntly, the Herod thing always struck me as one of those plot elements borrowed from earlier pagan stories but taken really really far (instead of "that one" baby, the evil ruler plans to kill them all); Perseus' birth is foretold with the prophecy that he will grow up to kill his grandfather and take over the kingdom; same with Oedipus and the Sigurd/Siegfried of Thidrekssaga.

edited 9th Oct '14 4:14:24 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

I rather doubt it. The Herod thing (assuming it didn't actually happen) seems to be a throwback to Old Testament, in which the Pharaoh orders a bunch of babies similarly executed for similar reasons. Making Herod do the same makes them both on the same level of comparative evil.

You know, you might be right.. I'll try to find my old school Bible and check.

I am a christian and I will be 100% honest here. Yes you aren't going to gain any christian fans with this idea... but at this point everyone and their grandmothers have parodied/attacked/ blasphemed etc Christian beliefs so... It won't really matter. Christianity is such a big acceptable target nobody will be surprised anymore.

Sorry if this comes out wrong— I'm trying to figure out the issues around this idea and am basically typing out my thoughts as I think. As the title says it's pretty vague as of now.

To Christian/Muslim tropers or those who aren't but also just aren't comfortable with the idea; Would it make any difference if say, the soldier wasn't the father of the baby or if it's not meant to be about Jesus in the way The Chronicles Of Narnia and The Golden Compass are about Christianity and atheism? To be honest the character of the girl isn't supposed to be Mary, more of a Mary figure, just as her son isn't Christ but a "Christ figure".

The story of Panthera has been adapted before so it's not as if something I made up. The only story along these lines that most people seem to find inoffensive is Life Of Brian— maybe because it's a comedy.

Wiki summary of traditions related to Jesus in the Talmud including early accounts of a character known as Joshua ben Pantera

edited 10th Oct '14 3:59:31 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

As has been said before, a story loosely based on Christianity has been done loads of times before. Be vauge, original, respectful, and only the people who activivily look for "heresy" everywhere will find things to complain about...

@TBP: I normally don't think "people who are offended are just looking for things to be offended about" but in this case I'm really starting to lean towards that. That’s mainly because the tradition of Mary having a relationship with a soldier named Panthera isn't something I made up. As has been said before, it goes way back. It's not even comparable to saying disrespectful things about the Prophet Muhammed due to the differing levels of general acceptance of Christianity and Islam in most western countries. Besides the story isn't even about Mary or Jesus.

BTW, check your P Ms— sent you a message yesterday.

edited 10th Oct '14 7:54:34 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Considering you understand how this could go wrong, the story goes way back and you will be using characters based off of Mary and Jesus, Not Mary and Jesus themselves, I think you should be fine. As others have said, the only people who may get offended are just going to be searching for things to be offended about- and you can't try not to offend anyone, as people can get offended by anything. In other words, you should be alright.

isn't there a book where Mary's role is played by a man and the Jesus figure is a girl?

edited 10th Oct '14 6:32:17 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

I wouldn't know, but that wouldn't surprise me

Found it. It's here.

Unless you include a lot of Christian imagery I doubt you should cause any real offense. The story of Jesus' life isn't particularly unusual in stories/mythology- the idea of a special child born in unusual circumstances who returns to complete a special task has been common in stories since long before Christianity. Just going on your quick description I doubt most people would even associate it with Christianity, especially since the virgin birth isn't present. It depends on how Christ like you make him, messiah like figures are a common feature of fiction and are accepted by most but if start adding obviously Christian aspects you increase the chance of offending people.

By Christian imagery do you mean things like communion symbolism and crucifixion?

edited 11th Oct '14 5:26:03 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

And baptism in the water, and the overall appearance (white tunic, long hair, beard), Herod's genocide, pacifism message, preaching methods...

Some people will find your work offensive no matter what you do.

Heck, I met someone who wanted to ban Greek mythology in my school because some of the tales were "a blatant rip-off of the facts written in the Bible".

Anyway, if I were you I wouldn't worry about offending people. Just write the best thing you can while being respectful towards others. Or don't be respectful. If your work is good enough, that won't even matter.

Of course, if it came to that (your work is seen as offensive/blasphemous/heretic), and you want to avoid a Cruel and Unusual Death, you can go with the Applicability instead of Allegory route.

The prophet who teaches a message of peace is a fairly common religious figure though. Quetzalcoatl was one of them IIRC.

edited 11th Oct '14 8:28:20 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Yes, but in the story you're trying to write, literally everyone would think of Jesus immediatelly.

That makes me think; what is the distinction between Crystal Dragon Jesus and a Christ figure? My conception of this character is basically "his world's equivalent of Jesus" since that world's equivalents of Judaism and Christianity came from North America instead of the Middle East.

edited 12th Oct '14 2:19:59 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

I guess that one of the main differences is that the real Jesus is the founder of a world religion. This is not allwaysneccesary for Fantasy versions as I understand.

This leads my question: Do Totally-not-Christianity spread across the world, or do it remain the religion for only the local tribe(s)?

The rest of the things that defines an counterpart-Christianity is that the founder is born by an vigrin, that the founder is without sin, is all human and all God at the same time, is an mirracleworker, dies for humanitys sins but is ressurected.

By Christian imagery I mean everything literal symbols, to life events or even the idea of a pacifist preacher performing miracles to the poor.

The idea of a messianic figure isn't so linked with jesus in people's perception that they will see the former and think of the latter, however Christianity's depiction of jesus is very distinct and you should steer clear of it if you want to avoid drawing parallels with Christianity.

It does spread, starting as a kind of shamanic mystery religion dedicated to monotheism.

edited 20th Oct '14 5:01:35 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

So you mean that this world Arctic is the equavilent of our world's Middle East of the Hellenism. (As in the origin of lots of monotheistics Mystery cults?)

It's the equivalent of this world's Middle East in the 1st century CE, so I guess yeah it is.

edited 21st Oct '14 5:13:00 AM by MorwenEdhelwen