RWBY General Discussion

Woobie? Eh, that's a bit much. I'd have stuck with giving them an Alas, Poor Villain entry instead.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Oh Jac I totally agree was mishandled.

He's so...weird

Like, the dude is responsible for so much horrific stuff and yet...hes treated like just a standard Greedy Douche. And in this volume he's treated as just a Played for Laughs bumbling Snake.

He's such an odd, oddly executed charachter.

The First man

I just meant that Ironwood is at least kinda understandable - he becomes a paranoid wreck who ultimately dooms Atlas, but he does so because he's desperate to protect his kingdom and doesn't seem to realize the damage he's doing. The fact that he ultimately dies with nothing left just solidifies for me that we can hate his guts while also appreciating the tragedy of his fall. It's similar to how I feel about Stannis Baratheon.

Jacques on the other hand... I've really just got nothing for that. Though I will agree that it seems like there's some wasted potential there. Like I appreciate that he got freaking obliterated, but it just seems like they could've explored him a bit more or made him worse than he ended up seeming.

A Yang fanart done in the style of either Yujiro Hanma from Baki, or Kazuma Kiryu from Yakuza, you pick.

And now

I can only call Neo Bubblegum B-tch because this song is catchy and apparently exists.

Edited by FOFD on May 7th 2021 at 2:13:48 PM

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

Yeah, I echo those sentiments. Weiss' whole plotline feels like it should involve the White Fang/Faunus issues more, but beyond her interactions with Blake in volume 1 there really hasn't been much on that front.

I think and issue the writer have is they have a disconection of what they want to portray the chararter vs what it end happen:

-Adam: the biggest issue here is that once you make adam a bitter ex hunting blake the white fang arc become a personale issue between blake and adam rather than a ideological battle between the two, that is why many feel chafted and wasted, the set up invold a sort of magneto vs xavier clash between pacifist vs violence, instead we got a sort of harley vs joker situation where you kinda sorta want to cheer blake and yang for violently murder Adam because he is a piece of shit, the feeling is "he got what he deserve".

-Cinder: her issue I find is that she is very....monothematic in her personality, for three volume she act like smug snake and for another three she act like ranging and spoiled child demanding thing be handle to her with little variaty on that. I eco fatmancalling saying roman display a huge rang of interaction(bossy to white fang minion, threatin to emerald and mercury, scare of cinder, annoyed with ruby, charming with other people) that is easy to se ehim as human being doing bad thing rather than a purely bad thing in general, so when we see her backstory, the feeling is more of a "who gives a damn now", I feel writer overplayed how tragic it feel since indeed is similar to adam.

-Ironwood: I feel james is so far the best atempt of writer to actually properly tell what they wanted for him, the only issues is that james as villian is pretty lackuster because the plot dosent allow to do anything and when he try he just suck at it, I will said the most powerfull scenes is him debating with oscar/ozpin because we see the clash of both finally happen and that only happen once, everytime the plot split them a lot, which is probably there is so much about james.

Not surprising the best villian are the once the writer have easiert time: tyrian and watts are uncomplicated villian who are petty that their motivation dont matter so they shine by what they do, salem so far have being the best in that we know what she want, how good she was, how tragic and she how evil she is, so far the biggest problem lie in gods and how the show is going to deal with that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

No, I haven't cut it. I'm getting the impression that he should be, however.

Edited to add: I used the three criteria on the Jerkass Woobie page to remove him. There are three elements a JW is supposed to meet and he only meets one (being a jerk).

• Being a jerk. (Yes, he's a jerk.)
• Being shown to have a hidden softer side. (No softer side is ever portrayed; the only times he ever displays the appearance of one, he's faking it to manipulate people.)
• Being shown to constantly suffer as a result of their jerkassery. (No, he gets away with everything except rigging the election; he's only caught because his wife has been spying on him for years. That's a single incidence of karma biting him in the arse.)

I've flagged his removal on the Woobie clean-up thread.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 8th 2021 at 10:48:05 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Late to the party, but I sort of feel Watts is at this point a candidate for CM. Unlike Cinder and Tyrian, his story is over so we can get a sense of the full picture.

Which is a man with such an enormous ego, that he went full genocidal supervillian because he lost ONE research grant. That was enough for him to fake his death and dedicate his life to destroying the entire kingdom.

He gleefully engages in acts of terrorism and mass murder, most notably shutting off the heat to kill thousands of people. And then he shoots up Central Command and sits around eating a snack among a roomful of corpses while trying to kill more people because he can.

He programs a self-destruct command into Penny, solely out of spite.

He also gets absolutely no humanizing or positive moments. He's a vicious, petty egotistical murderer from start to finish.

I could go into a long post about how Cinder didn't swallow her pride, how opportunistic isn't the same as adaptability, how I doubt Salem actually buys any of Cinder's bs, etc.

But I'm not gonna waste the energy. I fully acknowledge I am biased against Cinder and therefore people will likely not agree with me, but that doesn't change the fact that when it comes to Cinder, I won't give her the benefit of the doubt. She's still one of the worst written characters in the show and complete garbage to me, and I have zero inclination to actually go with the interpretation that she is somehow competent now. If I'm the only one who thinks that still, then whatever. Unless she does something that actually manages to make me think otherwise, she's still the same dumbass bitch she's been for the last few volumes, her backstory doing nothing but make me hate her more due to Motive Decay.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

So, about Jacques and Ironwood's final fate, they were once powerful individuals at the start (Jacques led the SDC and Ironwood was a well-respected general). But in the end, they ended up losing everything thanks to their own actions (Jacques was arrested for treason and, in an ironic twist, obliterated by the same general he tried to overthrow; and as for Ironwood himself, he went down with Atlas thanks to his paranoia).

In short, their fates can be summed up in five words: How the Mighty Have Fallen.

Edited by gjjones on May 9th 2021 at 8:23:25 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.

> Winter gets the Maiden power

Viewer: Ah, good, so Volume 12 Winter Maiden status confirmed. It's going to be Weiss.

Edited by FOFD on May 8th 2021 at 9:49:48 AM

Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).

You are saying that to the wrong men: I do think cinder is still a shallow chararter with a boring backstory but I cant deny this was her victory, she use the people who annoy her and she got the relic, that neo made part of the job means nothig since otherwise we can said salem did shit excet getting nuke in the face.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Is this a valid entry for Raven?

~Masma 94 added it to Characters.RWBY Raven Branwen. I removed it because we usually remove Evil tropes from her character sheet. Masma94 has added it back. So, I figure it needs a consensus. Now that I've read the entry a second time, I'm concerned there's a lot of Speculative Troping going on here; Raven may have been shown to have regrets about her family relationships, but she's shown no regrets about living the life of a bandit queen. We haven't even seen her since Vernal died, so discussing how Vernal's death has impacted her life is complete guesswork. This entry seems to be conflating her family issues with her Fatal Flaw to make sweeping assumptions about her entire lifestyle.

So, is there a salvageable entry here?

• Being Evil Sucks: Despite her Social Darwinism and her attempts to always justify her actions it becomes increasingly clear that Raven isn't happy about what her life has become and feels burdened by her choices of abandoning her team and family, and what their relations with them have become, as well as her increasingly cowardly and odious actions to escape from Salem and her murder of the Spring Maiden, no matter how hard she tries to push her regrets away. Her desperate attempts to escape from Salem by allying with Salem's subordinates just so she could take the Relic of Knowledge, risking her brother and daughter at the occasion, only succeed at alienating them even further and at killing Vernal, making her even more lonely and miserable. Once Yang breaks her facace of strength down and points out the fulity of her plan Raven is unable to hold her guilt back anymore and utterly breaks down, leaving Yang in remorse and shame.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 9th 2021 at 6:48:15 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Perhaps that should be cut

EDIT:...Actually reading it over, it does seem to be stuff the show has said or heavily indicated. Maybe more of a rewrite?

Though I do ask, why should we remove the evil tropes? From what I recall it was because of if she was a villain or not...but the reason she dosent technically count as a villain is villain not neccesarily meaning evil under its original definition.

Edited by Snoketrope on May 9th 2021 at 11:34:39 AM

The First man

Yeah, I think it was the Villain issue. In fairness, she's rarely had any evil tropes added to her anyway. It's almost always been Villain tropes.

Regarding what the show has said or implied.

• She would like her brother to come back to the tribe.
• She's bitter about Tai and Qrow's loyalty to Ozpin.
• She has bitterness towards Summer (why is undiscussed).
• She's bitter about Ozpin (she feels betrayed and horrified).
• She's strongly hinted to have regrets about Yang, but her solution to that was for Yang to live with her in the tribe.
• She's afraid of Salem.
• She's genuinely protective of her tribe.
• She genuinely cared about Vernal.
• The situation with Spring is clearly a raw nerve for her, but we just don't know what happened to be able to piece together exactly what about it is so upsetting for her (in short, trying to pin down exactly what is upsetting for her and what her feelings are is speculation).
• She is oblivious to her own cowardice until he confrontation with Yang in the Vault, which reduces her to tears. (We actually have Word of God for the fact she was still oblivious to her own cowardice when Leo invites Qrow into the ambush — where she storms off when Leo calls her a coward; the creators said that scene consists of two people who are cowards — one who knows it, and one who doesn't).

So, we know Raven has regrets about her daughter, team and Spring — but we can't say exactly what because that enters speculation. When she's finally forced to face her cowardice, she's reduced to tears and flees. But, there's no indication she has regrets about life as a bandit. Where the two come into conflict, her solution is to try and convince Qrow and Yang to live with her in the tribe.

So... what we've really got is a "Being Cowardly Sucks" entry — and that's what Dirty Coward is for.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 9th 2021 at 8:11:41 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Yeah, cut it, cite this, and report them for edit warring - it requires too much speculation on why she’s crying and calling her “evil” is just a bit much of a stretch

Oh she's a bitch, don't get me wrong, but when you're in a world with Cinder and Tyrian and your primary objective is protecting your tribe, you're definitely A Lighter Shade of Black

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 9th 2021 at 3:43:28 PM

Her being evil is...really not much of a stretch at all IMO, but i guess cut it based on Wylds reasoning.

Less Evil I totes agree, but she's still evil. She's got a higher body count then some of the villains like Neo.

Edited by Snoketrope on May 9th 2021 at 12:50:02 PM

The First man

It's less she's evil and more that she's morally bankrupt.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Yes characters have been listed under this trope despite not being outright evil such as Ozymandias, Jesse Pinkman or Draco Malfoy.

I think that this trope is less about characters being really evil than the characters being caught back by the consequences of their antagonistic or cruel actions, with their heinous actions catching up to them and making their life far worse that it was or would be if they had listened to their conscience earlier.

In Raven's case it means being caught back by the guilt and consequences of her abandonment and mistreatment of her family and of the other people she cared for and Who loved her, with her losing all the people she cared for with the death of the Spring Maiden and Vernal, alienating Qrow to the point of him disavowing her and ruining her already nonexistent relation with Yang, the all while making herself a bigger target for Salem.

We have no idea how many people Neo has killed. I wouldn't be surprised if Raven has killed more, but you can't actually say that definitively.

Edited by LSBK on May 9th 2021 at 3:15:04 AM

I'm reffering to what we do know based on what the show has given us, maybe Neo has blown up school buses before, but it hasn't been hinted at onscreen before.

The First man

Plus, ya know, Neo has a pretty high body count of her own even if just using estimates. Massacred the soldiers and staff on Ironwood's flagship while freeing Roman, the two of them shot down other ships including the one helmed by Travis Willingham, and she was complicit in the massacre of the Atlesian Command Center along with Cinder and Watts. I'm actually tempted to say Neo has the highest on screen body count.

And remember, if it was offscreen it's an Informed Attribute and may as well not have happened. The only vile things Raven did that fall under purview then are raiding Shion Village, kidnap Weiss, and throw Qrow and Yang under the bus to save her own ass.

Edited by RebelFalcon on May 9th 2021 at 4:34:25 AM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Anyway, since it's Mother's Day today in the US, who are your favorite mother characters from RWBY?

Edited by gjjones on May 9th 2021 at 8:41:08 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.

Kali. She's frankly the best mom in the show, and can kick ass with a damn tea tray.

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Also regarding Raven, I agree with the criticism (not brought up now, but it was during Volume 5) that her caring about her "tribe" would probably carry more weight if the show actually made it look like a tribe, but they didn't.

They were not a self-staining family unit with children being born in, or old people having lived throughout, they felt like a loose connection of people in their in 20s and 30s.