Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Men Are the Expendable Gender also mentions how male characters have to earn their sympathy. Shinji didn't do that because being incompent doesn't earn a male character sympathy.

Shinji would have probably been better tolerated if he was a girl, true. Possibly also because as a male protagonist the audience is supposed to identify with him. When we have This Loser Is You they're supposed to get better and become heroic like the audience hopes to, not become a nervous wreck under the pressure of saving the world. We want to think we can rise to the occasion. It's not nice to think about being crushed under the burden of heroism.

That is one of the main reasons I like Shinji as a character. I was Shinji in that I didn't want to get hurt so I isolated myself from other people and I avoid other people as I can. In real life, character development does come as easily as it does in fiction and sometimes people don't change their ways even after experiencing something colossal in their lives. Shinji frustrates most people because he doesn't exactly become a hero or get over his depression despite being a robot pilot fighting monsters. He is realistic depiction someone experiencing depression and often times telling them to 'get over it' actually does more harm than good.

You know if Shinji were a girl, you can bet your sweet ass that he would more fans due largely in part to double standards. Shinji would get more fans, he would be more sympathetic to other and otaku might want to get the feeling that they must protect her. Rei and Asuka would get hated even more for being jerkasses especially the latter.

"Eratoeir is a Gangsta."

Rei is more popular with the Japanese fandom and Asuka is more popular with the American fandom. A lot of people like Asuka because, despite being extremely fucked up, she at least still does things.

About the gender-flipped Super Mario idea from last page:

But a "tubby, plain-faced, blue-collar woman" fighting monsters in order to save her boyfriend would not necessarily be a loser. Far from it, in fact...

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

yeah, it is really sad how one simple change in a character like their gender can completly change audiences reaction to them.

why exactly do we have some sort of fear of showing a man's inner world or conflicts beyond the few we belive are exceptable? i feel like I'm missing a key peice of the puzzle here.

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?

No, but that's not the point of the trope, is it? It's not the character that's the loser, it's the audience member for identifying with them. (Or the creator of the work for insinuating that the audience would identify with a loser. ) That's how I understood it, anyway.

Besides, I don't think Mario was ever about TLIY and I don't see why gender-flipping would suddenly cause that. Is it because it's different? Because it's pretty much acceptable for a man to be overweight, unattractive and poor/middle-class, while these qualities are undesirable in women?

edited 13th Feb '13 10:39:56 AM by Alma

You need an adult.

Zeal, I never said any of those movies were for my kid.

I said I would have him watch School Days when he is much older, but all the others were examples for a totaly different point.

People give Shinji shit because he's a whiney emo bitch. I even gave Shinji shit for being so emo.

And I had to reign myself in.

The reason why most people rejected him was because he wasn't the stoic, rise to be a badass hero most audiences were comfortable with.

But Shinji is actually a very real reaction of what would happen if you put a tramatized 14 year old in charge of a giant possessed death machine.

Very much how Blue Gender's character's had to arc too.

Askua is a complete wreck who fronts being strong to try and cope. Rei is a complete void. I can see why they appeal to the resepctive countries the way they do.

And I can see while Shinji is what more people need, his reality makes him more of what they don't want.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I only read the first arc of Evangelion, so I apologise for my ignorance, but I stopped reading partly because of my reaction to Shinji. I was fine with him but the way everyone else treated him bothered me. I kept thinking, "grow a backbone, Shinji", but not because I wanted him to climb into the Humongous Mecha and fight. I wanted him to say "fuck you" to his dad and leave instead of giving in to what was clearly bullying and shaming. He was an upset kid who needed help, not someone who they should've been goading into risking his life through peer pressure.

The second arc opened with him moving in with a girl (who I can't remember the name of, sorry) and she treated him like a dogsbody. At that point, I said the Eight Deadly Words — I'd stopped caring about Shinji — and gave up.

edited 13th Feb '13 12:46:30 PM by Guest1001

I remember reading a hypothetically gender flipped version of Neon Genesis and it's surprising how much of a difference it made. Shinji weakness and cowardliness becomes if not in endearing at least tolerable. As does Rei's stoicness and Asuka's hot bloodiness.

hashtagsarestupid

Honestly, I can't stand passivity/lack of agency and excessive angst from either a male or female character. I read fiction because I want to read about...well, interesting things, and a character who's constantly whining doesn't tend to be interesting.

Shinji does a lot of things. He just does them all for the wrong reasons.

I've heard that Japanese audiences might have been more sympathetic than American audiences because in the Japanese dub Shinji was voiced by a woman and therefore sounded more childlike compared to American Shinji, who was voiced by a man.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:29:55 PM by ohsointocats

What he said is the exact problem with trying to use fantastic fiction to teach people anything. As I mentioned before, even if Tony Montana, Michael Corleone and Kratos "got what was coming to them" in the end, their lives were still a shitload more interesting than most of ours.

That doesn't mean we'd trade, but we'll fantasize for sure.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:29:30 PM by KingZeal

so, to summarize the shinji discussion, he's a very realistic depiction of depression (if still badly written because Reality Is Unrealistic ) in which the story basically never gives him anything but more crap to deal with, and he inevitably buckles under the pressure and goes kinda crazy. is that about right?

little sad this forum went quite for awhile... so lets see if it can be revived.

not sure how to word it, but I've always been put off by the film Fight Club , for its discussion(?) and views of society. it seemed very cynical, hateful of consumerism, and had a bizarre intrest in masculinity. I don't know, does anyone else think of a way to describe that movies view on men and maculinity? i'm at a loss for words at the moment.

edited 21st Feb '13 8:45:18 PM by Jetyl

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?

Fight Club as a movie is okay. Fight Club as a book is excellent.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

The film Silver Linings Playbook plays a lot with gender stereotypes in surprisingly serious manner. The main character despite his psychological problems is a romantic who holds rather old fashion veiws on sexual morality, so is understandably defensive about his girlfriend's reputation as town slut.

edited 21st Feb '13 9:37:52 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

Fight Club is a bit of a case of Misaimed Fandom mixed with Draco in Leather Pants. According to Chuck Pahal...Phalan...Palah...

From what I've heard, Word of God said that Tyler's viewpoints and the entire idea of the fight club was meant to be hypocritical and, frankly, rather pathetic. However, the tory did too good a job of making it look romantic.

Yeah, the book pulls it off much better, but that's to be expected in a lot of ways.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Fiction is by nature a bad medium to try to teach with since it cannot credibly present evidence and has to rely purely on principles.

Generally the maxim: boring is bad for stories and good for life is a good one to help keep things straight.

Fight smart, not fair.

If fiction isn't good for teaching then almost all educational institutions from Preschool to the Ph D level are doing it wrong.

Fiction can be an excellent teaching mechanism in the right hands, meaning someone who knows how to communicate whatever lesson the fiction mirrors to the intended audience.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Remember who you're arguing against...

Deboss isn't the only one in this thread who has said fiction isn't a good educational tool.

My comment was geared in general to allow a context where it can be and is used frequently with excellent results.

EDIT: I probably should elaborate to ensure it's clear I put the responsibility of the effectiveness on the teacher, not the material alone.

For example, most students had to read Shakespeare in high school. While that seems nice on paper, very few instructors are able to take such dense and linguistically foriegn material like Shakespeare and convey it in a way the high school student can process it with their experience and understanding. It doesn't mean the potential for lessons isn't there, but that most people have problems conveying it.

If anything, I personally feel fiction is ideal for learning in general because it's fun. You can learn without feeling like it's being crammed in your brain.

I learned so much about Japan and their history just by reading Shogun. It was entertaining and enlightening at the same time.

Just as when I am watching a movie or reading a story with my son, I always take that as a chance to engage him with the material in some way and help him gain a more edifying experience.

edited 21st Feb '13 11:13:03 PM by Gabrael

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

From what I've heard, Word Of God said that Tyler's viewpoints and the entire idea of the fight club was meant to be hypocritical and, frankly, rather pathetic. However, the tory did too good a job of making it look romantic.

... and then he said that he actually preferred the movie for its more sympathetic take on the whole thing, and that 'fight clubs' weren't such a hideous idea after all. Fight Club the book is a scathing, intelligent attack on dog-eat-dog corporate capitalism... provided you read as little as possible about Palahniuk's own opinions on it.

What's precedent ever done for us?

From what I've heard, Word Of God said that Tyler's viewpoints and the entire idea of the fight club was meant to be hypocritical and, frankly, rather pathetic. However, the tory did too good a job of making it look romantic.

well why exactly did they frame Tyler's ideal romantically then? did the people making the movie not get that you're not agree with Tyler?

I mean, I can understand where the stories hatred of consumerism and coperate capitalism come from, but then you have all the other crap in tyler's world view like the actual fight club itself. i personally never got why anyone would want to join a fight club, and the fact that tyler aperently got a miniture army through it is really baffling

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?

In the book, Tyler's revolution fails through his own Know-Nothing Know-It-All incompetence, for a start.

What's precedent ever done for us?