Human cloning- celebrities?

I was just looking at these two threads: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=316060 and http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=490833&page=2

This topic is inspired by two things: a) the fact that I'm writing a book about a kid who's a clone of Che. b) the fact that celebrities always come up in discussions of human cloning, and now I'm strangely fascinated by this topic.

What are the ethics and possible motives of cloning celebrities? What would be the possible impacts effective human cloning might have on society, especially on the celebrity clone and the celebrity clone's family?

It seems like every discussion I've read guesses that clones would be widely discriminated against. Would this necessarily happen?

edited 17th Aug '12 1:55:22 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Normally I'd ask you to summarise those links, but it doesn't seem that it really matters whether we've read them or not, so there's no point, really.

@Best Of: Basically, those links are two different threads on human cloning that are on the Straight Dope Message Board.

1. You cannot clone a celebrity. You can clone someone with the same genome but he/she will not by a longshot be the celebrity. At best they will look very alike. Personality is shaped by far more than genetics.

2. Simple said, creating a clone without consent of the person would imo be akin to creating a child by raping someone. Not the Kids fault but whoever did it. It would open many ways of abuse, fraud etc.

Imagine a Stalker starts to clone and raise a copy of his infatuation.

Heavy regulation of the tech seems mandatory.

The question is: Why would ypu want to clone a celebrity? For money? As a galleon figure? A tykebomb?

@30f4: But how and why would a celebrity clone (using that because it's shorter than "celebrity's late-born identical twin") be used as a Tyke-Bomb?

How is "celebrities" being defined? Is it actors/singers/random popular people? Are we including athletes(who have achieved a form of "celebrity status" as well by virtue of their success) as well? Or high-profile businesspeople?

With pretty much every person, the clone wouldn't be a identical to the original beyond looks... But for some athletes, a clone could easily be trained to match or surpass the original. You wouldn't even have to train a Michael Phelps clone aggressively in swimming to have him compete on the world stage due to his body-type being genetically predisposed to being Aquaman... The same could be said about some other athletes with regards to their sport. I mean, imagine a soccer team with 3 Edison Arantes do Nascimento's(Pele) taking the field...

@Swish: Any high-profile person, really.

edited 17th Aug '12 4:05:46 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Yes, this includes athletes.

It's a bad idea for athletes. Athletes are not genetically predisposed to win. What a silly notion. Do you know how much time Michael Phelps has spent swimming?

Now, you might be able to get a clone up to his level. Then again, you might not.

But in a sport like soccer, where it's all acquired skills? Hardly even seems worth the time.

edited 17th Aug '12 5:21:32 AM by Ultrayellow

I'm wondering if 3of4 was referring to my Che example when mentioning celebrity clones being possibly used as tykebombs. Because honestly that's the only reason why I think someone would want a clone of a revolutionary. @Ultrayellow: Yes, so I think the only way you would get even closer to replicating an athlete's success with a clone is if the clone was also genetically engineered to make them stronger than everyone except other athlete clones.

edited 17th Aug '12 5:33:32 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Genetic determinism is pretty blatantly against the spirit of revolutionary socialism, so I don't see why anyone would clone someone like Che.

@imadinosaur: They wouldn't just clone him, they'd put him through an intense regimen of Teen Superspy and military training. And do you really think that someone crazy enough to consider human cloning is really going to care what official ideology says? And anyway, he's got a pretty big Misaimed Fandom already, so I could see one of those misaimed fans wanting to clone him.

edited 17th Aug '12 5:41:49 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Then what's the point of cloning him? Why not just get some street child, or an orphaned infant, and train them?

Misaimed Fandom. *sarcastically* It just wouldn't have the same sort of symbolic relevance. Or maybe it's because I'm writing a story with this as its core concept. In-story, clones are used for military slavery, especially cloned children, because they are considered disposable and the person who commissioned the Che clone is a resistance fighter, so cloning him is pretty much a signal to those in the know.

edited 17th Aug '12 5:49:44 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

It would only make sense in a setting where cloning was pretty trivial, since no 15-year-old rebellious teenager (che's 'misaimed fandom') would have access to the millions of dollars of technical equipment & highly-trained technical staff that remotely-realistic cloning would require.

@imadinosaur: Yes, it's pretty commonplace. (Is that what you mean by trivial? If it's not, can you please explain) And no vats or anything. Since artificial genetic design is a new technology and genetic design kits are apparently sold in some parts of the US, at least according to the research I've done on technology for that aspect, it could be easy for some kid to design a clone. And in-story, my protagonist has artificial genes, like most clones.

Anyway, anyone else think a person would have to be a narcissist to want to clone a celebrity?

edited 17th Aug '12 6:09:43 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

You ARE aware that the human genome contains. Three. BILLION. Base Pairs. We have not even figured out of many of them work, or what parts of our genome actually does. Please provide some links that show me these "genetic design kits" are not just some fraud...

And unless in your story those kid has Advanced Genomics and Genetics as a High School class any attempt to tinker with genes is probably doomed.

Also: Unless said Kid has a very open minded Girl Next Door willing to play living incubator the Vat is kinda necessary. Also, how will he explain the freaking newborn wailing in the night?

Narcissist is not the word I'd use. Bloody Idiot more like.

edited 17th Aug '12 12:21:00 PM by 3of4

@30f4: Yep, I know that. The hypothetical kid could be a Teen Genius who got into university early. He's smart, and all of his friends are of his same intelligence/maturity level. One of his female friends is perfectly willing to be a living incubator, because she's in love with him and thinks love means "go along with someone's wacky schemes, no matter how crazy and out-there they are." And he wants to get into the Cuban government department that makes military slaves. Because Cuba is a mobsters' paradise and his family is insanely rich, close to The Generalissimo's family and wanted him to be President of the US someday, but would settle for him furthering American interests in Cuba.

These aren't the exact links I found, but they're similar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKxmqMH4w_A&list=PL8258A06C11ADE63C&index=8&feature=plpp_video and this:http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247002

As for the third question- lie and claim it's a friend's child he's babysitting.

edited 17th Aug '12 6:36:26 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

And the reason Cuba's a mobster's paradise is because it's an Alternate History. Operation Verano succeeded. The kid is fascinated by the "charismatic revolutionary whose rebellion was crushed by The Man." He kind of thinks cloning Che would be cool/edgy because he wants "revenge" on some of his Big, Screwed-Up Family. Of course, the story is about Che growing up in Cuba, not the kid in America who created him.

edited 17th Aug '12 6:44:58 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Actually, once you get up to the Olympic and professional level, everyone is insanely experienced and physical body structure traits do begin to edge out. Phelps has long flat feet, long arms, pretty much ideal composition. The guy is basically a giant-ass duck.

There's also a disproportionate representation of genetic traits relating to unusually good circulatory functions among that level of competition. I remember reading a while back that a gold medalist skier in the 60's had a genetic mutation that basically outright mimicked certain kinds of doping.

edited 17th Aug '12 7:00:11 PM by Pykrete

@Pykrete: What was the name of the gold medalist? Was it a man or a woman?

edited 17th Aug '12 7:09:40 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Eugh, hell if I know. I want to say he was Swedish or something. I'll look it up, one sec.

EDIT: Found it: Eero Mäntyranta, Finnish skier. Apparently he had doping and a genetic quirk that made him a circulatory-system superman.

Another genetic factor is the ratio of fast- and slow-twitch muscle tissue — obviously endurance stuff would require more of the latter, and short strenuous ones the former.

edited 17th Aug '12 7:25:06 PM by Pykrete

@Pykrete: Another one of him (Eero Mäntyranta) would be...interesting. And scary. There's something very spooky about the concept of cloning.

edited 17th Aug '12 8:16:01 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Okay. You are aware that there is a difference as wide as the space between solar systems between this bacteria kits and actual human genetic modification? The human genome is way more complex and complicated than a bacterias. And inserting a GFP encoding proteine into e. coli is well and good, but not very difficult. (one of the reasons biologists love e. coli is that it is very easy to insert genes into it)

And fun fact: The video makes kinda of a big deal out of the GFP (referencing the 2008 Nobel Prize in chemistry). GFP was discovered in 1962. The first use of GFP as marker for gene expression (where it is really useful beyond novelty) was 1992 (published 1994). The combination was the Nobel Prize, which is more than simple "make a bacteria glow". So the video could be a bit more accurate. Just saying before you take it at face value ;)

And Teen Genius or not, without a fully staffed and equipped lab he is going to get squat. He's in University? Thats great. He'd still need years of study to make it happen.

Sorry if I do sound harsh but I've just finished a practical course in genetics and genomics this semester and for me personally I'm way beyond the Willing Suspension of Disbelief in it ;)

edited 18th Aug '12 3:56:55 AM by 3of4

No, you don't sound harsh at all. Yep, there is a difference. Hmmm, maybe he's an adult by the time he makes the Che clone. There are some adults who are very into the cult of personality around Che, so—- wait maybe he accepts a commission from someone in Cuba wanting a clone? This old April Fools' joke was actually one of the inspirations behind CL and it makes fun of the sort of person who would want this in the first place

edited 18th Aug '12 10:13:58 PM by MorwenEdhelwen