Knight of Lolicon - feedback wanted

Dunno which anime fans you hang out with, but the ones I've known almost always use it with sexual intent in mind.

I know many anime fans who use loli nonsexual.

Loli (Little girl), not lolicon (little girl complex). The latter, most defiantly sexual, though evidently not the author's intention here.

Can we drop the semantics here? Merely having a controversial word in the name is not a reason for reviewing, let alone cutting - we aren't talking about tropes here.

Hmm... So the author made a great blunder when writing the title. The story's more like "Knight of Loli" not "Lolicon". Now everything's falling into place and makes more sense.

Alrighty then, back to analyzing the work. Also, is the English version borked or not? As I could start reading and giving my own thoughts about this whole debacle.

edited 6th May '12 10:44:47 AM by Delvarian

Let's not delve too deep into the definition of the word "lolicon" here. What's relevant to us as the P5 are the questions "Is it primarily pornographic" and "does it pander to pedophiles?"

The answer to the first is a clear no. The most obvious way to answer the second would be to find out whether the work sexualizes children, which doesn't seem to be the case here. However, a work that supports having a romantic (albeit non-sexual) relationship between an adult and a child could also be seen as pandering, in my mind.

So my question for Mazz, since you're probably the most familiar with the original source material at this point, is: does this work support romantic relationships between adults and children?

edited 6th May '12 10:46:35 AM by Meeble

You know what? By this point I have no idea.

I have the impression that the author is going by the "loli/lolita" definition you guys agreed in it (adorable little girls/pre-teens), while knowing that "lolita" can also mean "lusting after said little girls", but in the fic tried to be more of a white-knight for said little girls rather than to sleep with them.

...While still being creepy about it.

Ugh, this is what keeps giving me a headache whenever I try to analyze it.

The author is (intentionally?) vague about how sexually he portrays the characters. There is definitely some air of romance, but he doesn't link it directly to his character.

Even the Power-Up hugs appear perfectly platonic and only for the sake of gaining more power to save the Goddess.

The one point I can't discern is how old the main love interest is supposed to be. The author never describes her more specifically than "a young girl", and she herself mentions "having boobs too big (to be the Goddess of Lolicon)".

I second Delvarian's suggestion to contact the author. He appears to be Flight Master, but I could be wrong.

I think at this point only he knows what this was all about.

Considering that young girl could mean under 21 I don't see that big of a problem. But yeah it sounds like an unintentional mind-screw due to bad writing.

I don't think it needs to be cut just cleaned and maybe locked.

It's so...confusing. I also vote for contacting the author...maybe he can explain what a Jenderillo is...

It seems a little much to actually track down the author and ask him. Either the content is creepy or it isn't and so far as I can tell it isn't. Shouldn't we judge it on its own merits rather than what the author has to say about it? Granted, those merits are 'Incomprehensible but apparently not pedobait' and 'This is in a language I understand' but since it's clearly not porn and the MC apparently isn't in a romance with anyone underaged or underaged looking that should probably be enough.

I don't know if the author is still here - no edit history and no posting history.

More to the point: Exactly what is this being reviewed for? Because it has "lolicon" in the name? That is pretty weak.

We do have an anti pedophilia stance that is stronger than our anti porn stance. The narrative is also hard to decipher and it compares itself to a rather infamous work, KNJ. A review was warranted, but so far as I can tell the work is just confusing, not pandering.

If you decide to keep it, what could be done is:

1. Delete the quote and the first two paragraphs.

2. As the first paragraph, explain that it's a Mega Crossover Fanfic and put a link to the story (there isn't even one to the original Spanish story!).

3. Push down the third paragraph ("As of 4/18/2011 the fanfic has spawned a sort of sequel... words words words.") so it's beneath the introduction and the premise.

I still would vote to cut (if I could), for the reasons I explained either.

Reading it I still noticed all those skeevy ideas I mentioned, floating just beneath the surface, but they're simply not noticeable right away because of the bad, bad writing, and the Script Fic format distracts from it all.

I can do the editing I described, if that's what you'd like.

An apt description. Its saving grace was being so confusing. Who'd have thought?

edited 6th May '12 3:03:23 PM by Mazz

If the only romantic interest is a young woman of unmentioned age who is only described as too physically developed to be considered a "loli", and it otherwise doesn't sexualize children or promote romantic relationships between children and adults, I don't really see a reason within the P5 guidelines to cut this.

My vote apparently will be the third angel on this, but it can always be flagged for review again in the future if information comes to light which indicates it does support pedophilia in some way. The page could probably use a tidying as well, especially to rewrite the description so that it doesn't include back-handed defenses of Kodomo No Jikan (edit: alternatively, what Mazz said). If there are any volunteers to do that, I'll go ahead and close it out of the queue.

I wouldn't have guessed when accepting this position that one of the more difficult cases to decide would not be due to how close to "pedo-pandering" the work skirted, but because the work is so bizarre and poorly written that no one is really sure what it's even about.

edited 6th May '12 2:50:37 PM by Meeble

Frankly, this thing sounds like it would drive you crazy long before it could titillate you - if it can titillate you at all.

Sure, if you don't mind. I really appreciate all the help you've given on this one.

edited 6th May '12 3:08:55 PM by Meeble

Will do!

Thank you. It was a... Well. It was an experience.

EDIT: I also added an observation on the premise, for the benefit of the unaware reader who stumbles upon the TV Tropes page and wonders what's with the "Goddess of Lolicon" and "lolis".

edited 6th May '12 3:26:26 PM by Mazz

Wait, don't close the thread yet.

I just read the sequel out of curiosity, and I don't know what to think of the backstory:

Warning! More sort of mindscrew ahead:

(Ponen imágenes de flashback del final de la historia de Humbert y Lola, cuando pega un tiro a Quilty.)

HUBERTUS: Hubertus. Es el nombre que adopte cuando mi anterior vida llego a su fin. Había disparado a Clare Quilty para vengarme por el daño que había hecho a Lola... pero aun mas por el daño que me hizo a mí. Me encarcelaron, y mi vida termino poco después. Sin embargo, no era la última vez que nos veíamos. Nuestras almas llegaron al Mundo Animado de distintas formas: yo me convertí en un Caballero, el defensor de la Lolita primigenia, pero el se convirtió en un monstruo... en el Demonio de Lolicon.

(Ahora, la imagen principal del sueño de Blanche: la niña rubia, la sombra oscura y el guerrero salvador.)

HUBERTUS: Después de que Mike terminara de purificar el Mundo Animado y salvar la Diosa, ese demonio de Quilty logro hallarnos: yo me enfrente a el y conseguí separar su corazón y su cuerpo. Lo que quedo, una niña corriente que respondería al nombre falso de Blanche, fue enviada por Dolores a un remoto pueblo de este mundo para conseguir que olvidara su anterior vendetta y viviera en paz, e ignorante. Su corazón oscurecido fue sellado bajo el pueblo, en el arma que le puso fin cuando humano: la Pimp Buster.

Translation:

(They show flashback images of the end of the story of Humbert and Lola, when he shoots Quilty.)

HUBERTUS: Hubertus. That's the name I adopted when my previous life reached its end. I had shot Clare Quilty to avenge the damage he did to Lola... but more than anything, to avenge the damage he did to me. I was thrown to jail, and my life ended a little later. However, that was not the last time we met. Our souls reached the Animated World in different shapes: I turned into a Knight, defender of the first Lolita, but he turned into a monster... the Demon of Lolicon.

(Now, the main image of Blanche's (the main heroine of this fanfiction) dream: a blonde girl, the dark shadow, and the saving/rescuing warrior.)

HUBERTUS: After Mike finished purifying the Animated World and saving the Goddess (this happened in the first fanfiction), that devil, Quilty managed to find us: I confronted him and managed to separate his heart and body. What remained of him, a regular girl who would respond to the false name of "Blanche", was sent by Dolores to a far away town in this world to make her forget her old vendetta and to live in peace, and ignorant. Her dark heart was sealed under the town, in a weapon that had ended her life when she was human: the Pimp Buster.

Oh, God, you, guys. Wasn't Humbert the Villain Protagonist of Lolita?

I haven't read the book, but according to Wikipedia, wasn't Quilty the man Lolita tried to run away with?

So, according to the fanfiction author, Humbert was the good guy and Quilty the evil guy? WHAT.

EDIT: No, wait, Quilty was a pedophilic asshole too. But still, how is Humbert the good guy of the story?

edited 6th May '12 3:52:21 PM by Mazz

This is talking about the sequel guys, not the original. Besides, when I read that paragraph, I didn't see Humbert as a good guy, I still saw him as a psychopath. He became a twisted first "defender" of lolicon. Besides again, does Humbert see himself as a good guy? This is his POV right, it could be a bad case of Unreliable Narrator? Plus, does the sequel require the original to understand? I hope not, considering how twisted the entire story is.

edited 6th May '12 4:15:39 PM by Delvarian

I just finished speed-reading the sequel (it's incomplete).

Humbert/Hubertus is definitely portrayed as a good guy in the general point of view, not just his.

edit: Yes, it does require reading the first one. No, it's not a case of Unreliable Narrator, unless that turns out to be a twist in a future chapter, but so far it's all played straight.

No, Hubert wasn't the corrupt defender, it was the other guy (Xiglem), who is apparently redeemed. (Sorta? Kinda? But then he turns evil again? And then good again? Ugh, I don't know.)

My verdict is that I want to break down in tears.

edited 6th May '12 4:22:57 PM by Mazz

So... what's the verdict on this... interesting fanfic?

Clean mention of the sequel from the page, otherwise just leave it alone. It's gibberish, not offensive.

edited 6th May '12 4:23:24 PM by Arha

Just leave it. It's not pornographic, and the only crime it seems to have is being horribly written, about as offensive as My Inner Life.

edited 6th May '12 4:34:01 PM by Raidouthe21st

At this point, I have no fucking clue what is going on with this...work.

I thought the "Humbert being a hero" thing was covered by the mention in Alternate Character Interpretation, where Humbert is reformed by letting go of his sexual desire in favor of a proper fatherly love.

So "the pedophile" Humbert is not heroic, but the one who has rejected his desire for children is.

I may have been reading that wrong though. I just don't know anymore.