Page Restoration Petitions

Marq, we have to judge them by the standards and morality of humans, not by their own standards. A work of fiction can make up any kind of culture it wants to, but in the end it's written by humans and for humans.

One thing to note: the degree of sexualisation is significantly different between the manga and the anime adaptation. In fact, the anime version (currently watched Eps 1-5 and 12) comes across as pretty innocent compared to the manga.

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.

@One More: Being a succubus is a "highly sexual role" because most people in the world familiar with the term think of "Demon that is primarily focused on sex with humans."

For comparison, I would consider the daughter in Taken to also be in a highly sexual role, as a victim of kidnapping by a sex-trafficking ring. Her intent to not be a victim of such is irrelevant, as is the fact that she's saved before being raped, IIRC. The character is still sexualized by the role she's placed in.

With Taken, it's beyond question that the character's sexualization is portrayed as an evil thing done by very very evil people, and thus is whole-heartedly condemned by the work. I can't say for sure how Lotte treats the main character's sexualization since I haven't read it, but I'm not getting the impression that it's condemned very strenuously from the discussion in these threads.

(By the way, I know that the daughter in Taken is not underage, I'm simply using a work that I'm familiar with to illustrate my point.)

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I'm basing my opinion on the anime.

The world will not end if a few non-porn series end up being cut. Though I guess that's something of a disingenuous argument.

I'm not saying it's as bad as poverty, or hunger or anything. I'm just saying that I don't agree, that's all.

@Meeble: That's true. But it's stated rather strongly that neither the princess nor her "partner" are even thinking about doing anything sexual.
What kind of "sexualization" are you talking about — that she is expected to have sex as a succubus? If so, than it's as I said here.

edited 30th Apr '12 10:39:43 AM by OneMore

I guess the point I'm making is, after a while, when the council ends up having made its decision and everything is said and done, it's probably best to leave it be, even if the "wrong" decision was made.

Kids wearing clothes that would titillate someone if they saw an adult wearing the same thing

Dutch Lesbian

I was referring to the statement of her being "sexualized by simple fact of being placed in a highly sexual role."

By that logic, any preteen girl wearing a bikini would have to get the same treatment. And yes, preteen girls can and do wear bikinis in Real Life. Even a modest bikini can be titilating on an adult.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

In my country, thats one of the reasons why people think kids are over sexualised because companies are marketing that kind of thing at girls

Dutch Lesbian

Regardless, if that's the standard that you wish to employ, you're going to be cutting far more works than even the stricter mods and P5/10 members are advocating.

I feel that that is a particularly poor standard on account of how overly broad it is.

Exactly. Much like the daughter in Taken, the succubus' lack of intent to follow through with sex doesn't really matter. She's still in a sexualized role.

If a work that features a child in a sexual role does so in order to strongly condemn the subject matter, you could probably make a strong case for the work to not be considered "pedo-pandering". But if it's playing up the situation for comedy or tittilation, then the "condemnation" will come off as lipservice at best, regardless of how the main characters might feel about the subject.

edited 30th Apr '12 10:46:00 AM by Meeble

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And we understand that. All we ask is for any and every given work to be given a fair cop, if they have been then there would be no reason to complain.

#IceBearForPresident

Come to think of it, Higurashi has some young-girl-character-fanservicey parts, though mostly through the perspective of Keiichi or whatever his name is, particuarly in Rei when talks about how appealing Satoko and Rika-chan are in their swimsuits.

@Meeble: But succubi are made-up creatures, and the connection with sex is an agreement (albeit very widely accepted) rather than a fact, and a work may well not follow it. Moreover, how often do you find a child succubus?

One way or another, if somebody approaches this work with an expectation that "this girl is going to have sex", they will be told otherwise very quickly by the work itself, and any further expectations would be purely wishful thinking.

edited 30th Apr '12 11:00:56 AM by OneMore

Ok, two episodes in to the anime (yay, Streisand Effect), my observations:

Yeah there is a lot of innuendo in general, and a few shots that had me wondering "did they really have to draw it that way?" But as a straight, adult woman who likes anime but isn't a hardcore otaku...I can see why it's problematic for policy, but I can't find it in me to condemn it, and will probably keep watching. It is very cute, and there are things I could wax philosophic about but should probably wait till I've seen more, but...it seems to be almost deconstructing the sexuality. And the relationship between the two main characters is so far chaste.

This is somewhat tangential, but the earlier discussion of Deliberate Values Dissonance in the depiction of fictional societies, fictional species, or now extinct societies is one of the the things I'm concerned may not be taken into account in reviewing issues like this.

I'm reminded of a books series where the three primary romance arcs over the course of the series results in:

• A 14 year old girl marrying a 32 year old guy and giving birth to twins within a year.
• A 13 year old girl marrying a guy who is about 19-20 at the time. Within two years, she already has one kid.
• A 13 year old girl getting engaged to a guy in his lower twenties, and marrying him two years latter.

None of the stories treat it as anything bad. It is just the norm for the society in question, and the romance aspect is treated no different then if the girls in question were 18. The marriages are treated as joyous, positive, Happily Ever After things. It doesn't go into detail about the sex, but when characters are falling in love, getting married, and having kids, anyone over the age of 8 is going to know it isn't the stork doing all the work.

edited 30th Apr '12 11:17:44 AM by Catbert

... Homosexual Reproduction is possible in that story's setting?

edited 30th Apr '12 11:16:07 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

(nevermind, corrected)

edited 30th Apr '12 11:43:42 AM by OneMore

Sorry. Correction made.

@Catbert: I suspect that if Lotte were human, the Unfortunate Implications, especially on the part of her caretakers, would be through the roof. Because she is very obviously not human, it is not so clear cut, and Values Dissonance is part of it.

Also, I notices, Lotte is calling a lot of the shots. She is a princess, she can give orders, and she is not hesitant to do so. That affects the relationship dynamic a lot, I think. No regular human 10-year old would easily be able to declare "I don't want to live with my mother anymore because we've grown emotionally distant, so I'm taking my servants and moving out" and get away with it; Lotte not only gets away with it, but no one seems to want to insist on trying to stop her.

edited 30th Apr '12 11:37:42 AM by Elle

@ Elle she is such a lonely princess ;_; But she continues to be adorable for the whole show.

I'm thinking of the anime.

edited 30th Apr '12 1:19:47 PM by animeg3282

I wonder how much you all are unintentionally talking past each other.

If the manga is significantly more questionable than the anime (I think somebody said it is), then maybe Lotte's defenders are thinking of the anime, while it's detractors are grossed out by things in the manga.

I don't really know what bearing that has on whether or not it gets cut, but that may be why y'all are disagreeing about the actual content.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.