Content Policy Change

Opinions differ about what has no place on the wiki even among people who agree the wiki should not cover porn/pedo works. I cannot stress this enough.

Anyway, to clarify: the works FE is cutting are gone not because they're pornographic or pedophilic but because FE happens to dislike them being on the wiki for whatever reason that he doesn't have to explain because He moves in mysterious ways*

. The Council has nothing to do with that. That about right?

edited 15th Apr '12 5:39:26 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

@Katrika: Then could one of you mods talk some sense into the... troublemakers, to put it politely... who keep ignoring your own explicit orders to stop spamming the cutlist? Particularly, Myrmidon, if only for the following Face Palm-worthy cutlists:

Those are locked pages for God's sake, and for good reason. No need to cut them at all.

edited 15th Apr '12 5:40:33 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

While the council is still being developed, Eddie continues to cut things because he's being safe. I'm guessing he was caught off guard with the amount of pedophilia on this wiki. He said he's not a huge fan of anime and once again I'm guessing he didn't look at a lot of anime pages and realize how accepted pedo-fanservice is in the anime and manga industry.

If I found out that there was lot of pedophilia on my site, I'd be a little freaked out too.

E: Ninja'd

edited 15th Apr '12 5:37:56 PM by Akagikiba

There is nothing to discuss re Deep Throat being porn. We're not going to waste time on the question. There is no doubt that Romeo And Juliet is not porn. Not worth discussing. If a thing is listed on an index for hentai, good guess is it is hentai.

It is probably a good idea to start a thread listing petitions for restoration for things that have misidentified as porn or hentai.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

More like he believes that they contain stuff that he doesn't want on the site. Our issue is that even he has proven to be liable to misinformation about a particular work/trope's details if he isn't familiar with it, or whoever wrote that work/trope's article (or particular parts of it) is more or less misrepresenting certain aspects of it such that they look much more offensive than they really are.

This isn't Myrmidon's first offense, BTW. He's been doing that for a few days now, IIRC. Has any of you sent him a warning PM yet?

THANK YOU, Fast Eddie!

edited 15th Apr '12 5:41:46 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

@Akagikiba, that is exactly the sort stance that makes me afraid lots of non-pedo works have been, are, and will be cut because of misunderstandings and misrepresentation.

Can we please get at least some general guidelines for what constitutes "porn"? There's works on the hentai index that shouldn't have been there because they're for women (which cannot be hentai), but which are erotic romance with explicit sexual content; is this something that falls under the "do not want" category? Is it worth arguing for them?

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Who decides which works aren't worth discussing? On what basis? Can that be appealed?

Because that undermines the whole plan. "The council will discuss everything worth discussing, but not waste its time on anything that's clearly porn" overlooks what I thought was (much) of the council's purpose, determining what is and is not porn.

Very few people will flag works they think might be porn; almost every time someone flags something, it will be out of a rock-like certainty that it doesn't belong; if that rock-like certainty is used as the basis for decision-making the whole exercise is pointless.

Most of Miller doesn't really fit but I strongly support encouraging panel members to use the SLAPS test, or at least take it into account.

edited 15th Apr '12 5:47:35 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

Remembered a quote from a Tom Lehrer song while I was looking over the cut list, made me go out and look for something that I think is quite relevant, as it seems to me that this cutting has been made on a very similar basis to the following list.

The Miller Test is a test designed to find obscene material fit to be censored by a governmental body (assumed here not to be the moderators, since apparently they have no power anymore, but this new cutting committee.) Three rules to decide whether something is obscene.

1. Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, 2. Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law, 3. Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

My rebuttal

1. The average person, applying contemporary community standards. Since we are not a community in the traditional sense, the contemporary community is just this, the wiki and its tropers. And since we discuss Getting Crap Past the Radar, erotica, hentai, and porn, surely that is the average person applying their community standards. Thus cutting it is not in the interests of the community.

2. Similiar to 1. What state law are we bound by exactly? I seem to remember there being an entire trope about how age of consent laws vary by state, let alone by nationality. As a British troper am I allowed by the law of my country to include anything featuring sex between participants aged 16 and above instead of 18? What about people who live in Alabama (16) or Italy (14)? Are they to be restricted by the laws of California? There is no international age of consent or other sexual law. Some places still forbid anal intercourse, some forbid extramarital sex. By this reckoning the only acts we are allowed to even allow on this wiki would be over-18 married, religious people of the same faith, with no birth control for the express purpose of reproduction. (because of so many communities which have laws based on religion, not state law) I had no idea this wiki was so Conservative in its outlook, but then based on the mass cutting of anything even vaguely offensive maybe I should have seen that coming.

3. Okay, wow. So the entire genre of hentai has absolutely no literary, artistic or political importance? The entire genre of erotica has absolutely no literary, artistic or political importance? Any songs which describe sexual acts (thought I'd forgotten about them?)

I know that the Miller Test is not actually being used (yet), but it looks a lot like it is so far, and it looks a lot like it has been dcided what fits into the criteria of utterly without redeeming social importance by people who are not actually the social of this wiki. 'You'll know it when you see it.' No I won't. Because my culture as a British male is entirely different to yours, what I do and do not consider pornography is I would imagine entirely different to that of the cutting committee. So if this is a case of an unelected body deciding in blanket terms what is offensive and unaceptable, and I as a member of the community have no say in the matter at all, from what is offensive to who decides what to cut, then could someone else please provide me with a word to describe that situation, just so I make sure I'm not imagining what I'm seeing here.

It's not intended to be democratic. But hopefully the Council will be transparent and fair.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Pardon me, but is there any reason to be "safe than sorry"? Safe from what, exactly? What makes it so urgent? I just want to know.

Now using Trivialis handle.

Where will these petitions be made? In the Special Efforts forum?

Nevermind, got ninja-posted by Bobby G.

edited 15th Apr '12 5:50:08 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the Euroschlock category and all its subsets being removed, mostly because, with the exception of A Serbian Film, Anatomy of Hell, and Vase De Noches, most of the films listed there were made by widely acclaimed directors and achieved some degree of critical success. (Feel free to whack me if this is natter or not helping.)

Those are the only ones I meant. I don't know whether we are allowed to name individual works, so I didn't do so.

And now that the moderators have explained that is the intent behind the continued cutting, I am trying to stop panicking.

edited 15th Apr '12 5:52:27 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

What, then, is the council's duty? Why should we think the council will have teeth when there's a separate definition of "not wanted" that is officially different from "porn/pedo"?

edited 15th Apr '12 5:52:16 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

^ But some of it isn't paedoshit. That's the whole point.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

And, as has been noted several times already, we need a clear definition of what constitutes as "paedoshit".

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Best guess is the council will oversee the pages that FE doesn't get around to.

And come on, it is pretty fucking obvious if something is paedoshit, regardless of how "well written" or deconstructive it is.

edited 15th Apr '12 5:53:08 PM by arcsquad12

Do not be so quick to make foolish offers, Daemon. Araghast too once thought I would be an asset to his cause. Look what has become of him.

Bobby, I'm saying why do we have to hurry, when it's not Ad Sense or anything threatening us. Didn't we decide that the council is going to be the one determine what is/isn't safe?

Now using Trivialis handle.

@feo: Then I assume the works that aren't will be restored.

Has the council been determined yet? It seems like if the council forms, we can actually get to work.

edited 15th Apr '12 5:53:03 PM by Autumncomet

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade

Some problems with this approach have already been discussed: for one thing, the pages are sometimes not very good and misrepresent the work. This is presumably why the council is being set up, so we have a more reliable method than "a quick scan of the work's page makes it look bad".