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Renaming (alt titles 4/14): Princess Curls

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Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:14:48 AM

Both the trope description and the laconic entry specifically state that the trope applies to curls that frame the side of the face, like sideburns or payot would. However, a lot of the characters listed on the page, including the ones in the image links, have curls in different places in their hair.

For instance, look at Luna Platz in the image links section. She has no curls at the front of her face, and most of her hair is pulled back. Her ponytails are the "drills." This is an egregious example of a very distinctive trend in hair for anime characters, but it doesn't fit the current trope description.

Also, notice that Mega Twintails is listed as a subtrope even though it contradicts the trope description, since twintails are specifically tied back and thus not sidelocks framing the face.

I personally think the trope should be revised to include all examples of "drill hair," regardless of where the drills show up in the hairstyle, and the description should be altered accordingly. The curly "sideburns" look actually doesn't show up that often and is not as striking as some of the more outrageous examples listed.

lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:19:44 AM

Princess Curls is a trope because it's a hairstyle that indicates a well-bred, high-status, or sometimes just snobby and stuck-up character. "Drill hair" is indeed common, but doesn't necessarily have these connotations; it's usually just a hairstyle. So no, I don't agree with expanding.

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:21:36 AM

I don't agree with expanding to fit the misuse because the misuse doesn't fit ANY of the trope save for being curly. I do think that we might need to rename this to something Princess Sidelock Curls just to make it a bit more obvious but just having curly hair in anime isn't a trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Raso Cure Candy
Cure Candy
Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:24:47 AM

[up]I do not agree with a rename to that, our current name is very close to the preexisting term is Ojou Curls (along with Ojou Laugh) as this is a trademark of The Ojou if anything I would go with that.

IMO we just a seprate trope for huge curls on the top and back of the hair and connect that to Mega Twin Tails. (A Distinctive Appearances trope.)

edited 23rd Feb '12 11:38:01 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
lu127 Paper Master from 空蝉丸
Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:28:46 AM

I'll agree with Lebrel and Shimaspawn. Curly hair is not a trope, it's People Sit On Chairs. Curls to signify nobility or something similar is the trope and it's fine.

Maybe we need to add (if it's not there already) a note about how this does not refer to any kind of curly/drill hair, but only to that which gives nobility connotations.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:39:15 AM

[up][up] Our name may be close to a pre-existing term, but it's a relatively obscure one and one that's causing rampant misuse. Sometimes inserting an extra word to that sort of thing for the sake of those not familiar with it lets us keep as close to the term as possible but still stomp out the misuse from the ignorant.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:57:24 AM

I corrected the distinction lines on the pages for this and Mega Twintails.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Feb 23rd 2012 at 12:07:18 PM

Do Princess Curls have to be a certain length? Does it require the rest of the hair to not have ringlets? The description doesn't say. Does Maria below count?

Anyway, I'd say ringlets (or "drill hair", corkscrew curls, tube curls) does have some visual shorthand associated with it - it's a high maintenance hairstyle, so it would imply a level of "girlyness." It can denote someone aristocratic, because it used to be worn by such in ancient Rome. Putting it on a character would indicate that she's feminine rather than a Tomboy and is of high station, upper class, or acts like she is.

I'd say the Japanese trope is actually derived from the Western one that has ringlets anywhere on the head.

edited 23rd Feb '12 12:21:15 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Feather7603 Devil's Advocate from Yggdrasil
Feb 24th 2012 at 3:13:23 AM

I think a problem lies in that the description says that "drill hair" is the same thing.

Looks like we either lack a supertrope for general Drill Hair (which currently redirects to Princess Curls), or we should expand it to where drill hair is used to indicate nobility, no matter its placement on the head.

Also, as it is, Mega Twin Tails doesn't specify the style of the tails anywhere.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Feb 24th 2012 at 7:39:39 AM

Is the Japanese version of this trope common enough to be a subtrope? Maybe what we need to do is create a Regal Ringlets supertrope, and debate whether or not Princess Curls should be merged with it, renamed, or just cleaned up and see if having the supertrope helps.

I don't think we should call the supertrope Drill Hair, since Ringlets is the much better known term for this style.

EDIT: I went ahead and started a YKTTW for it. If we expand Princess Curls, I'll discard it and merge the examples. If not, it'll be ready to go sooner, because YKTTW takes forever.

edited 24th Feb '12 7:58:42 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:25:09 AM

[up] I think your YKKTW is Princess Curls. The misuse we're talking about isn't "regal character with curls who is not Japanese", it's "a character with curls".

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:28:13 AM

[up] Princess Curls, according to the page definition, is ONLY for characters with those two curly sidelocks. Any other regal character with curls doesn't count.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:33:12 AM

[up] Then maybe the description needs to be tweaked a bit? From the uses I've seen in manga, it doesn't matter if there are curls all the way around, as long as there are are curls at the side too (so a character with a curly ponytail but where the hair is pulled flat around the face doesn't get the "oujo" characterization, but a character with a full head of Shirly Temple curls does).

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:41:13 AM

It still wouldn't cover characters like Disgaea's original archer, whose curls don't frame her face.

Also, this really seems too narrowly defined as "use of this trope IN JAPAN", when there is clearly a broader non-Japanese trope at work.

edited 24th Feb '12 9:42:59 AM by ccoa

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lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:42:47 AM

[up] But does that count as Princess Curls? I haven't really seen that hairstyle associated with the type.

[edit to respond to your edit] Hmm. There is the old-school 1920's-ish "bratty spoiled rich girl with curly hair" stereotype too. Would that fall under your YKTTW?

edited 24th Feb '12 9:45:07 AM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:43:31 AM

Any type of ringlets is visual shorthand for regal/girly. Whether or not it's Princess Curls is up to this thread.

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lu127 Paper Master from 空蝉丸
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:45:30 AM

I agree it's not Japan-only. Curls are used to signify regality all the time, everywhere.

lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:45:50 AM

[up][up] "Girly" shouldn't count for Princess Curls. Girlish Curls is totally a thing, but not the same thing.

edited 24th Feb '12 9:46:05 AM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:48:14 AM

I was using girly to mean "feminine and concerned with appearance."

edit: Yes, I think a bratty schoolgirl probably would, since she's likely to be the Alpha Bitch. It was also a common hairstyle for actresses in the 1910's-1920's.

EDIT: I've never actually seen "straight hair with two ringlets by face" outside of the page picture, so maybe that's an anime-only thing. Assuming enough examples, perhaps we should do that as the subtrope, and all others as a less country specific supertrope?

edited 24th Feb '12 10:00:09 AM by ccoa

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lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:54:15 AM

[up] I was using "girly" for "feminine". Feminine Curls still aren't Princess Curls.

The way the manga I've seen plays this, the "straight hair with two ringlets by face" version is fairly common but by no means the only choice; as long as there are curls by the face the rest of the hair can be anything (all curls, ponytail, straight, you name it).

edited 24th Feb '12 9:55:57 AM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Feb 24th 2012 at 9:59:39 AM

^ It isn't now. That doesn't mean that the trope isn't that. I haven't heard an argument yet why Feminine Ringlets is different than Regal Ringlets.

So the image Raso posted doesn't fit either, but it's clearly meant to be regal and feminine.

We're either really missing the supertrope, or Princess Curls is way too narrowly defined.

edited 24th Feb '12 10:00:52 AM by ccoa

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lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 24th 2012 at 10:07:28 AM

[up] In Japan, Princess Curls is to show that a character is an Ojou; high-class and regal, deferred to by others, usually rich, sometimes actually nobility. She may be nice and charming, or cold and aloof, or stuck-up and snobbish, but she's not just "feminine".

edited 24th Feb '12 10:07:59 AM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Feb 24th 2012 at 10:16:58 AM

I never said just feminine. Only that it is an additional connotation in addition to high class.

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lu127 Paper Master from 空蝉丸
Feb 24th 2012 at 10:23:17 AM

I'm still not seeing how this is exclusively Japanese, or why the curls framing her face is the most important. We have examples from none Japanese media, who do not have the frames but have the curls (Princess Violet from Legend Of The Seeker for instance).

In short, I think this is too narrowly defined.

edited 24th Feb '12 10:23:30 AM by lu127

lebrel Tsundere pet. from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Feb 24th 2012 at 10:28:31 AM

[up][up] OK, but there is also an association curls = feminine, which is a perfectly valid trope (which we don't have), just not the Princess Curls trope.

[up]I think that example would go better under ccoa's YKTTW.

edited 24th Feb '12 10:29:10 AM by lebrel

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Alternative Titles: Princess Curls
14th Apr '12 7:50:24 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
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