Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales

Yeah, but like other said: the franshine right pirates as rock starts and much of will arc feel like him daring to be free, every scene in "europe" properly is wooden and very tightly.

is more like "someone sticking to the man" kinda of thing.

I don't know why people get so annoyed with pirates being romanticized as good.I just played a video game all about Phantom Thieves that indulged in every gentleman thief stereotype in existence.

If thieves can be presented as noble and heroic, why not pirates?

In the Trilogy at least, pirates are just...sea outlaws and given how corrupt and awful "the law" is, this isn't a bad thing.

edited 29th Oct '17 1:37:04 AM by Nikkolas

Thieves being romanticised is also an issue. But at least thieves have been known to vary in methodology while pirates were typically murderers and rapists on top of being thieves.

And no, the fact that there are corrupt lawmen does not make being a pirate any less of a bad thing. The only freedom the pirates want is to steal, rape and kill to their hearts' content. It's not like they're fighting to overthrow a corrupt regime. They're only opposed to the law because it's cramping their style.

edited 29th Oct '17 1:54:32 AM by windleopard

Except most of the pirates have no desire to rape or kill anyone so far as I can remember. Being a pirate in POTC is absolutely presented as being about freedom from both a mundane life and a corrupt system. That can involve horrible crimes of course but not by necessity and POTC certainly doesn't think you have to be a murderous rapist to be a pirate.

It's fiction. What's more, it's Disney fiction. Its relation to reality is as tenuous as any other Disney movie. It's a highly sterilized and romanticized setting that means nothing.

Pirates get noticed more for this because The Pirates Who Don't Do Anything has been such a visible trope in Hollywood for decades and people are starting to roll their eyes at it. It's similar to why romanticizing the mafia has gone out of the style (so Hollywood has gone into romanticizing corporate greed and crime instead).

In this series, part of the problem is also probably that while the first movie drew a clear line between piracy for freedom and ability to do what you want (with Jack, Gibbs even Anamaria) and piracy for greed and selfishness (via Barbossa and the skeleton crew), and then kind of forgets those moral lines along with a lot of the nuance in characterization that comes with it.

edited 29th Oct '17 2:42:22 AM by KnownUnknown

the first movie alone has numerous instances of pirates making lecherous comments towards Elizabeth. And there's a murder by a pirate in every movie.

That's a weird comparison. I mean, what are the most popular gangster or mafia movies? Godfather, Goodfellas and then for just "gangster" we have Scarface. In each one of them the criminals are cold-blooded murderers. They are romanticized in the sense they live glamorous lifestyles but they still ultimately end up with nothing. The end of Godfather Part 2 is perfectly poignant because Michael has lost everything that matters while gaining everything that means nothing. And Tony, well, no need to explain where his lifestyle and ideas got him.

You're still oversimplifying it. Real-world pirates had, at various times, a democratic government in Nassau, female ship captains, and offered slaves a chance to be free. Thieves, rapists, and murderers, occasionally— but that also sounds like the European colonial powers, both abroad and at home, to say nothing of the aristocracy and crusaders of medieval Europe. It sounds like most of history around the world, really.

In Europe during the Age of Sail, those in power certainly didn't care what happened to foreigners when they were busy conquering them. These were places that press-ganged innocent men into the Navy, worked the lower classes to the bone for a pittance and threw them in prison when they couldn't pay their taxes, and treated their own wives and children abominably behind closed doors. They just had the law to back up their actions at the time, because of wealth, noble blood, favour of the church, and hundreds of years of tradition.

I'm not saying that piracy is something to be emulated now, because you can look up those excesses easily enough. I don't think anyone IRL is actually naive enough to think POTC is a realistic portrayal of piracy. But you can get a sense of why people might be desperate enough to turn to that kind of life beyond mere greed or a callous disregard for the law.

edited 29th Oct '17 8:25:35 PM by Unsung

Pirates have been romanticized in a similar way as Robin Hood, while maybe not as altruistic they represented living free from the confines of an equally corrupt society and having Honor Among Thieves, rejoicing in the fact that they can exist "off the grid." It's the same reason Easy Rider was so popular. Mafia and Crime films have a similar appeal with showcasing subcultures.

Well, Sparrow was branded a pirate when he refused to ship slaves as a member of the East India Trading Company.

In a deleted scene,which would have added a lot to his character had they left in it in

-shakes head-

edited 30th Oct '17 8:34:19 AM by Ultimatum

Deleted scenes don't count

They can,they were filmed after all,but they're not part of the film itself

" It's similar to why romanticizing the mafia has gone out of the style (so Hollywood has gone into romanticizing corporate greed and crime instead)."

I dont think romanticize but it does show a glamorous lifestyle that make people forget they screw people up.

The backstory is technically still canon because the official tie-in novel The Price of Freedom, which details exactly like that, was released by Disney and tends to still be considered canon. It may sound hamfisted but it is not without reason, historical Pirates were famous for their multicultural nature. runaway slaves often found their ways to pirate crews, Blackbeard's second-in-command for a time was a former slave called Black Caesar.

I was thinking, If I were to fix Dead Men Tell no Tales whilst changing the least amount of scenes, I'd have made Jack reaching rock bottom after his crew desert him into a darker moment. I'd have only Gibbs stand by him, and Jack sends him to Tortuga to recruit some fresh pirates. Gibbs would arrive there to recruit pirates and find the place under the grip of Barbossa's massive pirate fleet (though Barbossa himself wouldn't be there), who'd tell him about this Capitán Salazar hunting down Pirates. As if on cue, Salazar would arrive and scorch Tortuga to the ground in a Big Badass Battle Sequence in which we'd see Barbossa's fleet putting up resistance and subsequently being destroyed, with Gibbs being killed by Salazar in the end of it all.

Jack receiving those news about the destruction of Tortuga and the death of Gibbs would be what puts him in rock bottom but also pulls him out of it, giving him the drive in the quest to destroy Salazar, now motivated by vengeance.

Something along those lines, except frame Barbossa more completely as the protagonist here. Seemingly still the villain of the piece, but make it clear from the start that this is going to be his story, about this guy who should by all rights be some kind of legend: Captain of the Pearl, ghost pirate, returned from death itself, Pirate Lord, British privateer, and master of the largest fleet the Caribbean had ever seen...! And then show how he lost it all, only to finally get back the one person he ever truly cared about.

"Deleted scenes don't count "

Unless they're restored, like the unicorn in Blade Runner.

Mmm. Tis a problem I've noticed, but the movie's so goofy I don't care that much. It would've been nice to see him have a genuine moment of grief when he was at the gallows, or when

I finally watched this. I liked it about as much as I would any of the Fast and the Furious films. Which is to say, at least it's not boring, and it's been years since I watched the previous films so any continuity errors went right over my head.

So:

• Best scene was Jack outmaneuvering Salazar at the Triangle.
• I guess there were sharks nearby when Salazar's ship blew up so... that's why they were in his possession? I feel like The Dutchman should have had this ability.
• I like Salazar more than Jones or Blackbeard. Jones was menacing. Blackbeard was focused and had a ship with a flamethrower on it. Salazar was tenacious.
• I would have had Will show up in the beginning to kick off his son's journey and left it at that. But this film seems to be setting up another (and possibly final) film, so I'll let it slide.
• Carina comes off as a "I'm a woman and this time period sucks" kind of character. I didn't feel that way about Elizabeth or Angelica.
• Was Teach the one in the cell? Why did Jack call him "Uncle Jack?"
• So Barbossa suddenly has a daughter? I guess this makes sense because as he himself puts it, he tried to do the decent thing and leave her with a chance at a good life, so he naturally wouldn't have brought her up in conversation. Still.
• I feel like this film's climax, and heck the previous film's as well, just can't compare to the Black Pearl facing The Dutchman in the middle of a whirlpool.
• I expected Jack to go "and really bad eggs" at the end of the film.
• Jack's past has come back to kill him so many times and while Salazar was probably the best version of that, he was kind of squandered. There wasn't that same animosity that Jack had with Barbossa and Jones.
  • While there could be a long line of people Jack has screwed over in the past who became afflicted with an undead curse, I refuse to believe that in the next film there will be an even worse pirate or British Navy captain who Jack screwed over in the past, and that said pirate/Navyman will suddenly come back for vengeance.
  • They blew their load having Jack face Davey Jones. He's the quintessential villain of this franchise and there aren't too many other "great" pirate villains that I know of. Blackbeard could have filled that role but Barbossa killed him.
• Speaking of, I doubt Barbossa's actually dead. Next film we'll find out that breaking Poseidon's trident unleashes a curse upon one-legged men that transforms Barbossa into Pirate Galvatron, and he summons all the greatest pirates whoever died at sea and turns them into Nigh-Invulnerable water clones who can run on water and teleport and run on land.

...overall I enjoyed it. Wikipedia is saying that they wanted this film to be more emotional and be more like the first film, but that's what's always said when a franchise is moving forward and none of the sequels have been as acclaimed as the first film.

I think the steps were there - Jack losing his crew, Jack giving up his compass, Barbossa discovering a long-lost daughter - but they didn't push far enough and they were still too focused on comedy and special effects, rather than focusing on characters and gravitas. I'd give them points for Barbossa and Gibbs having new motivations, but the former is supposedly dead and no one gives a f'ck about the latter.

edited 7th Mar '18 11:11:23 AM by Soble

Pirate Galvatron. That's a beautiful concept, right there.

I found this to be enlightening as to why the last Pirates film was a train wreck:

Johnny Depp wore an earpiece to have his lines fed to him.

What? I don't even...

I have one problem with the video. Muppet Treasure Island is not 'possibly' the best pirate movie ever.

It is the best pirate movie ever.

Marlon Brando made it work to be fair.

That video was more of a history rant than an examination of the film's failings. The video barely said anything about why this film was a train wreck.

And if it is a train wreck then it is an entertaining train wreck nonetheless.

What? Geoffrey Rush being uninterested and only doing the film for the money, and Depp being such a twat that he couldn't be bothered to learn his lines not enough reason why the film was a dumpster fire?

Tough crowd.