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AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#197501: Jul 7th 2017 at 11:19:14 PM

It's good to see people realizing how effective they can be in their immediate areas, instead of just focusing on what Washington as the be all end all of good law and policy.

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (USA) (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#197502: Jul 7th 2017 at 11:44:23 PM

Crossposting from the Canadian Politics thread:

Seeking U.S. ties apart from Trump, Trudeau will be first PM to address governors’ meeting

WASHINGTON—Seeking influence with U.S. leaders who are not President Donald Trump, Justin Trudeau will be the first Canadian prime minister to deliver a speech to a major conference of American state governors.

Trudeau will give the keynote address at the National Governors Association meeting in Providence, Rhode Island next Friday, just over a month before the expected opening of North American Free Trade Agreement renegotiation talks.

Trudeau’s address will focus on trade, his government said in a news release, and he “will also emphasize the importance of the Canada-U.S. partnership in cross-border security and the potential for common solutions on climate change.”

The address is part of Trudeau’s effort to build relationships with U.S. officials at the state and local levels. On the whole, state governors are far more pro-NAFTA than Trump, who calls the deal a “catastrophe.”

But the appearance will also give Trudeau another chance to make his trade case to Trump’s administration, with which his aides have been in frequent contact on trade. Vice-President Mike Pence is thought to be planning to attend, and economic officials may also be present.

Trudeau’s government described the attempt to build ties with governors as a complement to, rather than a replacement for, its healthy ties with the president’s team.

“Our government has worked hard to establish a constructive working relationship with all orders of the U.S. government, especially with the administration, and the president and his team directly,” said Trudeau press secretary Cameron Ahmad. He added: “The prime minister’s attendance at the National Governors Association summer meeting next week is part of that effort, and only builds upon our direct engagement with the administration.”

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#197503: Jul 8th 2017 at 3:22:28 AM

@Elle: The overly-snarky answer: The only possible justification for rebellion is victory.

Setting Shogun aside, my answer is that you're part of society. You have a right and responsibility to be a part of shaping it, fighting for what rights you believe in and speaking out against social forces fighting to abrogate them. (And yes, in the most extreme cases and if there's either a hope of achieving your aims, or you're faced with death either way, that "fighting for your rights" can be literal.)

Just because I believe that rights aren't natural doesn't mean that they're not important. In fact, since I believe that rights are social constructs, I consider it all the more important that people stand up and work to translate their beliefs into fact. But (for example) property ownership isn't "natural." The idea that this thing is mine, and that thing is yours, is a very useful and important human invention.

And yeah, since I work from this set of assumptions, I tend to be more comfortable with the idea that society can decide to set restrictions on the individual for the greater good, and I think that personal freedom is a very important thing and something that society should protect wherever possible.

edited 8th Jul '17 3:24:49 AM by Ramidel

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#197504: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:10:48 AM

This time, let's share an article I almost completely disagree with: [New York Times] Back to the Center, Democrats

     The article 
The path back to power for the Democratic Party today, as it was in the 1990s, is unquestionably to move to the center and reject the siren calls of the left, whose policies and ideas have weakened the party.

In the early 1990s, the Democrats relied on identity politics, promoted equality of outcomes instead of equality of opportunity and looked to find a government solution for every problem. After years of leftward drift by the Democrats culminated in Republican control of the House under Speaker Newt Gingrich, President Bill Clinton moved the party back to the center in 1995 by supporting a balanced budget, welfare reform, a crime bill that called for providing 100,000 new police officers and a step-by-step approach to broadening health care. Mr. Clinton won a resounding re-election victory in 1996 and Democrats were back.

But the last few years of the Obama administration and the 2016 primary season once again created a rush to the left. Identity politics, class warfare and big government all made comebacks. Candidates inspired by Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Elizabeth Warren and a host of well-funded groups have embraced sharply leftist ideas. But the results at the voting booth have been anything but positive: Democrats lost over 1,000 legislative seats across the country and control of both houses of Congress during the Obama years. And in special elections for Congress this year, they failed to take back any seats held by Republicans.

Central to the Democrats' diminishment has been their loss of support among working-class voters, who feel abandoned by the party's shift away from moderate positions on trade and immigration, from backing police and tough anti-crime measures, from trying to restore manufacturing jobs. They saw the party being mired too often in political correctness, transgender bathroom issues and policies offering more help to undocumented immigrants than to the heartland.

Bigger government handouts won't win working-class voters back. This is the fallacy of the left, believing that voters just need to be shown how much they are getting in government benefits. In reality, these voters see themselves as being penalized for maintaining the basic values of hard work, religion and family. It's also not all about guns and abortion. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both won working-class voters despite relatively progressive views on those issues. Today, identity politics and disdain for religion are creating a new social divide that the Democrats need to bridge by embracing free speech on college campuses and respect for Catholics and people of other faiths who feel marginalized within the party.

There are plenty of good issues Democrats should be championing. They need to reject socialist ideas and adopt an agenda of renewed growth, greater protection for American workers and a return to fiscal responsibility. While the old brick-and-mortar economy is being regulated to death, the new tech-driven economy has been given a pass to flout labor laws with unregulated, low-paying gig jobs, to concentrate vast profits and to decimate retailing. Rural areas have been left without adequate broadband and with shrinking opportunities. The opioid crisis has spiraled out of control, killing tens of thousands, while pardons have been given to so-called nonviolent drug offenders. Repairing and expanding infrastructure, a classic Democratic issue, has been hijacked by President Trump - meaning Democrats have a chance to reach across the aisle to show they understand that voters like bipartisanship.

Immigration is also ripe for a solution from the center. Washington should restore the sanctity of America's borders, create a path to work permits and possibly citizenship, and give up on both building walls and defending sanctuary cities. On trade, Democrats should recognize that they can no longer simultaneously try to be the free-trade party and speak for the working class. They need to support fair trade and oppose manufacturing plants' moving jobs overseas, by imposing new taxes on such transfers while allowing repatriation of foreign profits. And the party seems to have forgotten that community policing combined with hiring more police officers worked in the 90s - and it will work again today. It can't be the party that failed to stop the rising murder rates in cities like Chicago.

Health care is the one area where the Democrats have gained the upper hand and have a coherent message about protecting the working poor from losing coverage. But the Affordable Care Act needs to be adjusted to control costs better, lest employer-sponsored health care become unaffordable. For now, the Democrats are right to hold the line in defending Obamacare in the face of Republican disunity.

Easily lost in today's divided politics is that only a little more than a quarter of Americans consider themselves liberals, while almost three in four are self-identified moderates or conservatives. Yet moderate viewpoints are being given short shrift in the presidential nominating process. So Democrats should change their rules to eliminate all caucuses in favor of primaries. Caucuses are largely undemocratic because they give disproportionate power to left-leaning activists, making thousands of Democrats in Kansas more influential than millions of people in Florida.

Americans are looking for can-do Democrats in the mold of John F. Kennedy and Bill Clinton - leaders who rose above partisanship to unify the country, who defended human rights and equality passionately, and who also encouraged economic growth and rising wages. That is the road back to relevance, and the White House, for the Democrats.

It's interesting how the guy asking to move to the center asks the party to occupy many positions that Sanders supporters (though, it's necessary to stress the point, not the ones who are regulars in the thread) and sometimes Sanders himself frame as moving left.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#197505: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:13:21 AM

According to the Spiegel newsfeed Ivanka has subbed in for her father at the G20 Negotiation table.

BBC link

edited 8th Jul '17 6:16:12 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#197506: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:18:35 AM

To add my two cents to the sidebar discussion a tad late (hey, I gotta sleep sometime...)

The Amish are not against modern technology for its own sake. They are against anything that prevents them from being self-sufficient and self-reliant, or forces them to rely on resources outside of their own community.

Thus, they don't have their houses wired for electricity, because that forces them to rely on the municipal power grid. (When we have a power outage, what do we do? Nothing. Sit in the dark and wait for the power to come back on.) However, they might have a refrigerator that runs on kerosene, or a cell phone, or a portable generator to run their power tools (at least among the New Amish.)

Similarly, although they pay taxes, they don't pay into Social Security, because they don't collect it when they retire. In their advanced years, their families and friends take care of them.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
Figure of Hourai
#197507: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:21:36 AM

[up][up][up] About the most sane thing there is getting too tangled up in identity politics, but otherwise getting confused about what the left means.

Avatar Source
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#197508: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:28:01 AM

[up][up][up] Imagine how much the GOP would have whined in an alternate timeline if Chelsea took HRC's place at G-20. Not that HRC would have done that.

IOKIYAR...

[up][up][up][up] A stronger argument for sticking with the center would be the fact that the left failed to win the primaries.

Here's the thing. The "establishment" doesn't need to win over the "progressives". It's the progressives who need to prove that they are the future with concrete results. And that means winning. As Ambar once suggested a while back, if they are so confident their ways can work, they need to fucking prove it.

edited 8th Jul '17 6:31:11 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#197509: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:34:48 AM

Now, the questions we've got to ask ourselves are these: is he bored and throwing a tantrum about it? Is he unhappy about spending time with a crowd of people who don't like him and will happily give him the freezerburning shoulder (and throwing a tantrum about it)? Did somebody take his phone (which might explain the lack of a tweet-storm about it)? Is he ill (and, if so, in what way)?

Boston Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
#197510: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:41:04 AM

Apparently he had a sidebar meeting with the Indonesian PM, so Ivanka filled in for him at the G20 meeting.

Oddly, I'm sure this sort of thing happens often; normally, an aide would fill in, right?. I'm assuming there's parliamentary procedure for "A vote is called for, but your elected official is in the loo at the moment."

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#197511: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:41:05 AM

Apparently it's a 1 Vs 19 on the Paris Accords with the rest simply refusing to "renegotiate"

[up]Standards in this case are to use a high-ranking substitute, not an unpaid advisor who happens to be the daughter.

edited 8th Jul '17 6:42:08 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#197512: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:47:25 AM

[up][up][up][up]Uh, the article is asking for the Democrats to move right from their current positions so they occupy the new (further right) center, by pandering to the WWC, they see the current Democratic party as being too leftist. The interesting part is that this guy's suggestions to move right are things many "Berniecrats" claim represent a move left.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#197513: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:50:47 AM

[up][up]

Yeah, an unelected official is one thing, but when it reeks of nepotism, that's another thing entirely.

And funny enough, the freaking page quote for that page is about Trump's tendency for that with Ivanka, a good decade before this all happened.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#197514: Jul 8th 2017 at 6:57:00 AM

[up][up]I kind of agree that the article isn't really arguing its case very well. I just think that it's less that the "establishment" has to give the "Left" the benefit of the doubt and their full support, and more that the "Left" has to earn that support via actually proving they can win against Republicans.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
Figure of Hourai
#197515: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:02:48 AM

[up] Anyone that says "chase the centre then do policy" forgets that you lose that policy by chasing the centre, and that in doing so you're also moving closer to your counterpart—which is unhelpful for giving a reason to vote for you instead and gives said counterpart ample opportunity to move further right.

Avatar Source
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#197516: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:11:24 AM

[up] That is a fair point, especially since it more or less validates bothsiders. That said, I'm not particularly arguing for the Democratic Party to move back to Bill Clinton's policies. I am just saying that those who want the Democratic Party and their money to move to the Left have to earn it. They have to prove that there are a lot of people in the USA, even in red and purple districts, who want more progressive policies. And that means winning elections.

I'll wait until the 2018 midterms. If progressive policies end up leading to a massive Blue Wave...

edited 8th Jul '17 7:48:25 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#197517: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:13:14 AM

Breaking: Lavrov says Trump brought up accusations of Russian hacking; Moscow and DC will set up joint working group on cybersecurity.

WHAT COULD GO WRONG??

Y'know, a few days ago I saw an article arguing that even if Trump had no collusion with Russia during the election, he can essentially be counted as an accessory after the fact. Thus far the G20 meeting is adding strength to that argument.

Sessions' Justice Department gives Texas Voter ID laws a wink and a nod

One of the toughest voter ID laws in the country might soon be back in use, only this time with a stamp of approval from the Department of Justice.

On Wednesday, the department submitted a brief to the U.S. District Court in Corpus Christi, Texas, in support of the state’s Senate Bill 5. The legislation is currently facing a lawsuit in that court from plaintiffs who claim it discriminates on the grounds of race. In its current form, it requires voters to have an authorized photo ID—driver’s license, passport, military identification, or gun permit—or a signed affidavit and other identifying documentation, like a utility bill, in order to cast a ballot.

This is the third time a Texas voter ID law has gone through the courts, each time through Judge Nelva Gonzales Ramos, who in 2014 called a 2011 bill’s even stricter ID requirement—it didn’t offer affidavits as an option—a “poll tax without the tax.” Ramos’s conclusion that the law represented such a tax, because it imposed the cost of acquiring identification on would-be voters, has since been overturned by the Fifth Circuit Court. Her finding that the law had discriminatory effects, however, was upheld by that court, a finding that paved the way for the creation of the new, more relaxed S.B. 5.

Under former President Barack Obama, the Justice Department was a party in the lawsuit against that 2011 bill, S.B. 14, and filed key briefs on behalf of the plaintiffs. The department argued then that the law not only had a discriminatory effect, but that its passage after Texas state lawmakers scrutinized racial differences in access to identification also constituted a discriminatory intent. The intent question was important: Since the Supreme Court struck down federal preclearance of state election laws in the 2013 Shelby County v. Holder decision, one of the few ways courts can bring states back under strict federal review is by finding that they have intentionally discriminated against certain voters.

Last July, after the Fifth Circuit found S.B. 14 to have discriminatory effects, it sent the law back to Ramos’s district court. The judges wanted her to reconsider her original ruling that the bill also had discriminatory intent, saying that she’d relied too much on Texas’s history of racism in her original finding. In February, with Ramos’s reevaluation under way, the Justice Department under newly appointed Attorney General Jeff Sessions dropped its objection to the law that alleged discriminatory intent. In April, Ramos concluded again that the body of evidence supported her original finding.

In order to minimize the chances of Texas being put under preclearance once again, the state legislature began crafting a new voter ID law as Ramos made her considerations. In June, Governor Greg Abbott signed S.B. 5 into existence, which looks just like S.B. 14 but for the addition of an affidavit option. The revised law actually resembles a relaxed version of S.B. 14 that courts allowed Texas to deploy in the 2016 elections, but plaintiffs state that the continued, racially biased effects of voter ID, as well as Ramos’s intent findings, should wipe the law off the books entirely.

Following on its first pivot under Sessions, away from the discriminatory-intent objection, the Justice Department has now essentially abandoned the case altogether. Its latest finding, detailed in the brief submitted Wednesday, that S.B. 5 “removes any ‘discriminatory effect’” inherent in S.B. 14 undercuts the plaintiffs’ case—even though there’s no real data yet to support that claim. The department also found that the state legislature’s very willingness to craft a new bill handles the question of discriminatory intent.

But its additional conclusion that the new law “advances Texas’s legitimate ‘policy objectives’ in adopting a voter ID law” has wider implications beyond just the future of voter ID in Texas. That statement seems to suggest that strict voter ID laws are legitimate and proper. It also likely sets the bar even higher for when the Justice Department will get involved in future voter ID cases.

edited 8th Jul '17 7:19:59 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#197518: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:18:04 AM

Yeah. That's been one of the bigger pieces of proof of Trump's incompetence to me. Your administration is being accused of colluding with a foreign power, whether you're guilty or innocent, wouldn't the smart, or even just common sense, thing to do be to not do things that look like colluding with a foreign power?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#197519: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:21:13 AM

[up]Not just "look like". This is colluding with a foreign power.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#197520: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:22:16 AM

Yeah. That's been one of the bigger pieces of proof of Trump's incompetence to me. Your administration is being accused of colluding with a foreign power, whether you're guilty or innocent, wouldn't the smart, or even just common sense, thing to do be to not do things that look like colluding with a foreign power?

And isn't it odd how he and his followers are big fans of arguments like this until they get turned against them? If Clinton has nothing to hide, why doesn't she turn over everything? If the DNC has nothing to hide, turn over Podesta's server.

When it comes to "If Trump has nothing to hide, lets investigate the Russia thing with his campaign", suddenly that line of thought goes right out the window.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#197521: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:33:23 AM

[up]

When it comes to "If Trump has nothing to hide, lets investigate the Russia thing with his campaign", suddenly that line of thought goes right out the window.

That's probably why he has no qualms about this. His people and his party give him a pass on nearly everything else, why not this?

edited 8th Jul '17 7:33:37 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#197522: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:35:26 AM

I want to repost this article from the last page, because I originally edited it into another post and I think it's too important to get entirely lost.

Sessions' Justice Department gives Texas Voter ID laws a wink and a nod

One of the toughest voter ID laws in the country might soon be back in use, only this time with a stamp of approval from the Department of Justice.

On Wednesday, the department submitted a brief to the U.S. District Court in Corpus Christi, Texas, in support of the state’s Senate Bill 5. The legislation is currently facing a lawsuit in that court from plaintiffs who claim it discriminates on the grounds of race. In its current form, it requires voters to have an authorized photo ID—driver’s license, passport, military identification, or gun permit—or a signed affidavit and other identifying documentation, like a utility bill, in order to cast a ballot.

This is the third time a Texas voter ID law has gone through the courts, each time through Judge Nelva Gonzales Ramos, who in 2014 called a 2011 bill’s even stricter ID requirement—it didn’t offer affidavits as an option—a “poll tax without the tax.” Ramos’s conclusion that the law represented such a tax, because it imposed the cost of acquiring identification on would-be voters, has since been overturned by the Fifth Circuit Court. Her finding that the law had discriminatory effects, however, was upheld by that court, a finding that paved the way for the creation of the new, more relaxed S.B. 5.

Under former President Barack Obama, the Justice Department was a party in the lawsuit against that 2011 bill, S.B. 14, and filed key briefs on behalf of the plaintiffs. The department argued then that the law not only had a discriminatory effect, but that its passage after Texas state lawmakers scrutinized racial differences in access to identification also constituted a discriminatory intent. The intent question was important: Since the Supreme Court struck down federal preclearance of state election laws in the 2013 Shelby County v. Holder decision, one of the few ways courts can bring states back under strict federal review is by finding that they have intentionally discriminated against certain voters.

Last July, after the Fifth Circuit found S.B. 14 to have discriminatory effects, it sent the law back to Ramos’s district court. The judges wanted her to reconsider her original ruling that the bill also had discriminatory intent, saying that she’d relied too much on Texas’s history of racism in her original finding. In February, with Ramos’s reevaluation under way, the Justice Department under newly appointed Attorney General Jeff Sessions dropped its objection to the law that alleged discriminatory intent. In April, Ramos concluded again that the body of evidence supported her original finding.

In order to minimize the chances of Texas being put under preclearance once again, the state legislature began crafting a new voter ID law as Ramos made her considerations. In June, Governor Greg Abbott signed S.B. 5 into existence, which looks just like S.B. 14 but for the addition of an affidavit option. The revised law actually resembles a relaxed version of S.B. 14 that courts allowed Texas to deploy in the 2016 elections, but plaintiffs state that the continued, racially biased effects of voter ID, as well as Ramos’s intent findings, should wipe the law off the books entirely.

Following on its first pivot under Sessions, away from the discriminatory-intent objection, the Justice Department has now essentially abandoned the case altogether. Its latest finding, detailed in the brief submitted Wednesday, that S.B. 5 “removes any ‘discriminatory effect’” inherent in S.B. 14 undercuts the plaintiffs’ case—even though there’s no real data yet to support that claim. The department also found that the state legislature’s very willingness to craft a new bill handles the question of discriminatory intent.

But its additional conclusion that the new law “advances Texas’s legitimate ‘policy objectives’ in adopting a voter ID law” has wider implications beyond just the future of voter ID in Texas. That statement seems to suggest that strict voter ID laws are legitimate and proper. It also likely sets the bar even higher for when the Justice Department will get involved in future voter ID cases.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#197523: Jul 8th 2017 at 7:55:07 AM

If Trump has nothing to hide, then let's see his tax returns for the past twenty thirty years.

edited 8th Jul '17 7:57:12 AM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#197524: Jul 8th 2017 at 8:16:49 AM

@IFWander: There was a brief period after the election where you saw Sanders rhetoric (and that of numerous other policymakers) edging towards some of the positions expressed in this article; ie the democrats need to move to the center on social issues, however that's largely vanished as of late, thanks in no small part I suspect to the vigorous response by the left to that suggestion.

Social justice and economic justice are, in the long term, inseparable, and attempting to pursue one at the expense of the other will come back to haunt the party in the long term.

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#197525: Jul 8th 2017 at 8:31:33 AM

I think the Dems do need to hold the center but that article suggests some really bad solutions for the wrong reasons

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison

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