General Star Wars Animated Series

This has always bugged me about a lot of the dark side turn attempts in the series, primarily because of the way the universe awkwardly Hand Wave it.

The universe basically cheats around this by having turning to the dark side not only succumb to darker impulses and emotions, but also - for some reason - want to join Team Evil, whatever that might be at the time. Dark siders never want to kill other dark siders, except in order to steal their power from then inside, regardless of whether that makes sense for the actual reasons and nuanced characterizations that caused them to turn to the dark side in the first place.

The current canon is less awful about it, mostly because the purge cut out most of the (imo cliche) attempts to play the dark side as The Corruption or most of the content that involves those handwaves (which forgot, overall, the fact that most of the most iconic instances of joining Team Evil in the movies were the result of the person being steadily manipulated and convinced over a long time, not just snapping to it), but it's still a noticeable thing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:43:58 AM

It's weird 'cause it's kind of a Flanderization thing. The original "Give in to your hate" moment was Palpatine trying to turn Luke. Notably, he also did not do "Give in to your hate and strike me down," but rather "strike my apprentice down."

His endgame goal was that Luke would kill Darth Vader in a fit of murder-rage. And then Palpatine would step forward and shape that murder-rage in a manner that would be useful to him.

But whenever I see other Dark Siders doing it, they are alone with the Jedi. Like. The f*ck do you think's going to happen if you actually pull this off? Lightsaber in your throat, that's what. Any plan that is fundamentally predicated on your quarry murdering you in the face is a bad plan.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:47:15 PM

What they're doing is saying "You feel that power? You like it? I can teach you more if you join me."

Which seems totally valid as a temptation, to me.

Also, Maul and Ventress's TCW arcs both involve Dark Siders trying to kill other Dark Siders outside of the "I will attack you from within" mold.

Edited by BadWolf21 on Aug 16th 2018 at 1:47:21 PM

I remember the novelization of ROTJ was especially bad about it, because Palpatine doesn't go that far. Luke dips into the dark side for a second against Vader, and instantly changes motivations from wanting to destroy the empire to wanting to readily join it as Palpatine's apprentice, without Palpatine even needing to say anything.

The EU then took the implication that the dark side makes you do whatever is most evil at the time and ran with it, leading to a long period of time where the dark side was portrayed as having a will of its own that made people's decisions for them.

As I said in my post, I'm not talking about the examples where they become apprentices because Sidious or other actually convince them to do it. I'm talking about examples where turning to the dark side is used to just snap a character into being an imperial (or other) without any actual development necessary.

In the cases I'm talking about, there's no offer to be taught. It's just "turn to the dark side, want to be a Sith Lord," as a matter of course, which at times would fly into the face of the series' explicit point that since the dark side is the result of darker emotions and an analogue for real life greed, selfishness or pain, there are a myriad of ways to actually turn.

As I noted, this is the primary way the series tries to handwave the bit Tobias brought up about nobody following through with killing other dark siders if they turned in the course of trying to do so.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:56:33 AM

You know, I think this is why Palpatine was the most effective and brilliant Sith Lord ever. He had the foresight to play the "Give into your hate" card from a position where someone else would be the actual recipient of the ensuing murder-outburst. He did that shit to Anakin too, encouraging him to decapitate a disarmed and helpless Dooku from the safety of a chair twenty feet away.

Palpatine actually thought these things through.

...that's dumb. That is super dumb.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:55:27 PM

Are there any actual examples of that? Other than Pong Krell, I mean.

I mean. He first revealed himself as a Sith Lord when they were alone. What was the plan if Anakin tried to arrest him right then, when Anakin's instinct was still "The Council needs to hear this"?

Edited by BadWolf21 on Aug 16th 2018 at 1:53:16 PM

Anakin has no arresting authority, I don't think. He's always been a stickler for rules, that one.

Like I said, most of the examples were in the old EU, and purged since (though it's also fair to say that since people were turning left and right in the old EU, the well done examples probably more just got buried under the bad ones), and there are quite a few examples of Jedi turning in the old EU and immediately joining the Separatists or the Empire or etc why not (iirc Aayla Secura, for example).

But the most obvious example, as I said, was Luke in the ROTJ novelization.

I dunno. He's a Jedi, and even if he's not a Master, he's still on the Council. The guy just admitted to him that he was the Sith Lord who attempted to assassinate his wife a decade ago. I think "You're coming with me" isn't an out of line thing to say in that moment.

If Anakin had tried to arrest him, he probably would have leveraged it as evidence that the Jedi are conspiring to overthrow the Republic. That's part of the brilliance inherent in Palpatine's trap: the Jedi had no ability to move against him without looking like they were performing a coup against the Republic's democratically-elected chancellor.

Because moving against him for being a Sith Lord was, in fact, performing a coup. A justified coup if you're down with the Jedi lore, but a coup nonetheless.

He did this at the end of an elaborate campaign of militarizing and radicalizing the Jedi Order to the point that a devoted Jedi padawan wound up bombing a military hangar. He laid the groundwork such that the public would readily believe that the Jedi Of Today might actually try to seize the throne for themselves. Whether his identity reveal went well or poorly, the narrative would be one of treason against the Republic rather than of virtuous heroes striking down a terrible villain.

And he only revealed his identity, as noted, when he was alone with Anakin. If Anakin had tried to arrest him, it would be the word of a rogue Jedi with a well-documented history of ignoring orders and launching reckless, impulsive campaigns on his own gut instinct versus that of this nation's beloved leader. The case wouldn't even make it to trial.

Remember what happened to Fives? The indication of his private conference with Palpatine seems to be that the latter told him the truth, then screamed for help when he reacted violently to the true nature of Order 66. Palpatine baited him into looking like he was attacking the chancellor by manipulating him into legitimately attacking the chancellor. Worst case scenario, the same thing happens to Anakin.

But Palpatine had every confidence that, at that point, Anakin was ready to turn. He just needed one last push; the kind that could only come from choosing him over the Jedi Order.

Being a Sith Lord isn't necessarily a crime. But being the Sith Lord that orchestrated the blockade on Naboo, repeatedly attempted to assassinate Queen/Senator Amidala, and backing the Separatists is.

I think that was brought up in the RotS novelization, where Palpatine (before the reveal) dismissed the Jedi's hate towards the Sith as religious bigotry.

Also in the novelization, when Palpatine revealed he was the Sith, Anakin did draw his lightsaber on him, but Palpatine was able to talk him down because he was one of Anakin's only friends, and promised him a way to keep his wife safe—a promise he had been hinting at for the entire book.

It doesn't matter if it's a crime. It only matters if Anakin can prove it using purely anecdotal evidence from a reckless Jedi prone to violent outbursts.

Prove that Palpatine is the Sith Lord who orchestrated those things.

Tobias I have to say that I am truly enjoying seeing you go through this show, and doing so having somehow stayed spoiler free. Both from a "wow this person has no clue just how right/wrong they are" perspective, but also from nostalgia and being able to reflect on my initial thoughts when it was airing.

^.^ I've never followed the Star Wars EU, so I know literally nothing about the franchise beyond the movies, the KOtoR games, and the occasional bit of second-hand information gleaned years ago like "Boba Fett escaped the Sarlacc somehow".

01x11 - Idiot's Array

Hey, it's Lando! Neat! Small universe to randomly bump into someone we know from the original trilogy so soon after randomly bumping into R2-D2 and C-3PO.

Is it bad if I'm totally onboard with Lando taking Chopper with him when he leaves? That thing is basically R2-D2 if he was a pointless asshole for no good reason.

Not a fan of the jealousy angle with Aladdin getting upset that Lando's stepping on his turf by hitting it off with Sabine. I mean, dude's presumably a womanizer but Sabine's allowed to make her own mistakes. Ezra doesn't own her. She doesn't need him to save her from her right to make choices for her own life. It's a toxic subplot that appears in all kinds of media and is always irritating.

Assuming she's an adult, anyways. Which I think she is? It hasn't really been suggested that anyone in this crew is actually underage other than Ezra. And given that I'm pretty sure Disney wouldn't want to imply that Lando's a pedophile by having him go after her, I'm going to assume she's old enough for a man of his age to pursue.

I mean, there's nothing necessarily skeevy about his interest in her art, mind you. But Ezra's possessive overreaction suggests that we're at least supposed to consider the possibility that he's hitting on her. And that would be a really uncomfortable thing to suggest if she was underage.

But like I said, so what if he is? Whether he is or isn't, it's no business of Aladdin's. I really hope this isn't supposed to be a sincere romance subplot ala Aang and Katara because Ezra's been nothing but obnoxious about how much he wants to stick his dick in Sabine. Half of their interactions consist of him just humping her leg like a dog in heat, but given the target demographic, I have a sneaking suspicion that we're supposed to be rooting for him to Get The Girl.

I think that, in and of itself, is another difference in how the show treats him versus how Clone Wars treated Ahsoka. Ahsoka felt like one part of the larger cast, an extension of Obi-Wan and Anakin's role in the story. Ezra, on the other hand, is a unique and special snowflake who feels like he's meant to be The Main Character, the Luke Skywalker of the group who you're meant to instantly relate to and want to see step up and be the big hero.

The way he's presented makes it feel like Rebels is meant to be his story more than anyone else's, whereas Ahsoka was pretty firmly only one part of a much grander universe. Much of the story in this season has revolved around his journey specifically. Indeed, we barely know anything about the other characters beyond how they relate to him.

But anyways, moving on from that. I do like the way Hera was able to pick up the plan and rescue herself from the predicament Lando dumped her in. Hera doesn't get to do much, so this was a nice little opportunity for her to shine. Also, I cracked up at, "That was a really useful tray."

Also, Ezra's janky-ass lightsaber is also a blaster. Huh. I'd noticed that other port in it and was wondering about it. I thought it might be, like, a second blade or something, but it seemed awkwardly placed. Gunblade makes more sense.

All in all, Hera's part of the episode was awesome and it was nice to see her get some character focus. Other than that, this was nakedly a Guest Star episode. Nothing really happened to move or advance the plot other than Lando now owing Hera a favor. The events were basically, "Lando Calrissian shows up and the team accompanies Lando on the adventures of Lando for a brief Lando-filled day of Lando."

01x12 - Vision of Hope

Woot! We get to meet Senator Trayvis finally! I've been really interested in his broadcasts, so it's neat to see him show up. I also like how Ezra was boasting about how Trayvis is too smart for the Empire to track his clues 'cause only locals would get it. Like. Imperials don't spring fully-formed from the ground, kid.

I mean. Clones sorta do. But I don't know if they're still using clones twenty years later. They were running low on Jango Fett's genetic stock during the Clone Wars as it was, and we saw a training facility for actual non-cloned cadets. The Kamino stock must have run dry.

Point is, Ezra's logic is dumb because every Imperial was a local somewhere once upon a time, so that secret knowledge that only locals possess is totally possessed by Imperials too. It was really only a matter of time before the guy who goes "Hey, I know that place!" was an Imperial. And then sure enough, we see right here in this episode how dumb the logic was! Inevitable outcome was inevitable.

Very confused by Sabine being able to track Ezra by scent. The first time it came up, it seemed like a funny joke. "LOL Ezra's an angsty hormonal teenager and he sure does smell like one." But then it showed up again in the back half of the episode in a serious context. Like. Is that a thing?

Not sure if this is supposed to be a really weird Ship Tease or if there's some kind of Mandalorian racial ability I'm not aware of that lets Sabine track people by their smell. Did Satine ever start bloodhound sniffing, Wolverine-style? I feel like I'd remember if she did.

I really liked the big twist around Senator Trayvis. I did not see that coming at all. I've kind of been waiting for a sort of olive branch to be extended to the group by someone. Like, "Nice work, guys. Now you're ready to join the real Rebellion." I don't mean that in a bad way; it's just that it's been twenty years since Bail Organa, Obi-Wan, and Yoda parted ways. I keep expecting there's some larger resistance being put together beyond these guys. I thought Trayvis might extend that branch.

But there isn't, is there? This rag-tag group really is meant to be the birth of the Rebel Alliance, isn't it?

I also really liked how Trayvis's scheme worked. Basically, his goal is not to arrest but to identify troublemakers so that the Empire can monitor and secret-murder if necessary. That makes a lot of sense. They went the extra mile of trying to actually apprehend this group because this particular group have, themselves, gone above and beyond the call of "troublemakers". But the scheme itself is clever.

I hope we revisit this either next episode or down the road, because they didn't actually thwart him. They only escaped him. He's going to issue more broadcasts and set up more people. This is still happening.

Trayvis might be the scariest Imperial I've seen in the show so far, on account of his M.O. not relying on either a) an army of Stormtroopers who can't hit a giant monkey man when he's five feet in front of their faces or b) that Sith Inquisitor dude who's too in love with the sound of his own voice to properly shank a f*cker and can't be arsed to spin his own goddamn lightsaber. Trayvis is a spy acting against the Empire's own subjects. That's the kind of shit I wanted to see.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 16th 2018 at 3:11:42 AM

I mean, if I was voiced by Jason Isaacs, I'd probably talk way too damn much too.

01x13 - Call to Action

GRAND MOFF MOTHERF*CKING TARKIN. The Rebels just got legit.

Trayvis makes a weird decision to just give up on his ruse and rejoin the Empire publicly? That seems like an odd choice to make. It's not like Hera's crew has any real means by which to expose him that he knows of. They make a plan shortly after to send their own transmission out while also acknowledging that all non-crazy methods of doing so would allow the Empire to track their signal and find them.

So. Like. If he just went back to doing what he was doing, the Empire would have credible reason to believe that the Rebels couldn't stop him and, indeed, would give themselves away trying. I don't see what there is for the Empire to gain by packing it in here.

Tarkin confirms that there are, in fact, other cells out there but no real organization among them. So, yeah, this is the birth of the Rebel Alliance. That certainly explains Bail Organa and R2-D2's plot from before. So the Organas are probably leading one such cell, but as with the others, they're just an isolated resistance and not the militarized force we know today.

The Rebels perch on an arch overlooking a street to recon the Imperial transmitter they're trying to hit. A Recon Droid shows up, prompting Kanan to shout, "We need to move!" And then they just shuffle five feet to the other side of the arch and it works.

I like Ezra's use of wildlife to beat the recon droid. It's a nice demonstration of how his Jedi training is progressing. We saw him learn how to do this back in "Gathering Forces" and now here he employs the skill again more easily, providing a clear line of development and growth for his character.

And then after all that trouble to keep from being spotted by the probe and take it out in a way that would look natural, they promptly ride off in direct view of its f*cking lens. GREAT WORK, TEAM. You had one job, guys. One job.

Ezra goes off on another hormone-driven complaining trip, but this one's pretty reasonable and I like how it's presented. He's afraid of the very real danger that the crew's about to put themselves in by taking this step and legitimizing their insurrection against the Empire. If they go through with this, they aren't outlaws and renegades anymore. They're Enemies of the State. The Empire will use everything in its power to bring them down.

He's not wrong. An entire planet is going to die in retribution for what's starting right here and now. Countless lives will be paid. The galaxy will be consumed once more by the fires of war. For freedom from the mistakes of the Clone Wars, there will be a price.

I like how calm and together Kanan is by comparison. He lived through the Jedi Purge. He's probably actually seen at least some of the horrors of war. He knows exactly what they're declaring by doing this. And he's scared too, but he has the perspective of a life lived both in war and in an unjust peace to know what's worth risking everything for. What's worth trading everything for.

It's a good scene.

I honestly thought Kanan was going to die after he sent the others up in the elevator. This felt like his Obi-Wan moment. And it kinda was, given that he was captured and taken to Tarkin. But I'm glad he's still alive, because I feel like his character still has so much more to offer this show.

I love Tarkin's ruthless bombing of his own transmission tower. "You do not know what it takes to win a war. But I do." Chilling words coming from a veteran of the Clone Wars. Take notes, Inquisitor. That right there is what scary looks like. Complacency, thy name is not Grand Moff Tarkin.

And then the curtain closes on the sound of radio static. Which is perfect. I actually wish the Star Wars theme hadn't suddenly leapt up for the actual credits roll. Having that static just continue to play as the credits come up would have been the perfect punctuation mark.

Wasn't Anakin against Palpatine after the Son gave him force visions in the Mortis arc? That was a case of a Jedi being corrupted but still wanting to destroy the Sith instead of joining them.

Kanan was a Padawan and Commander during the Clone Wars, so him being calm and collected is to be expected-especially after surviving the Empire's purge for 15 years, mostly on his own.

To be precise, Anakin attempts to avoid his future of turning to the darkside, becoming the apprentice of a master of the dark side, and then destroying the Jedi by... turning to the dark side, becoming the apprentice of a master of the dark side, and then destroying the Jedi.

He tries to rebel against his future by doing almost literally the exact same thing as before.

But I get it at least with Anakin, because he's an idiot because after all the manipulation and war he's gone through, he already poised to believes there's no other way - after what Sidious did to him, he's a bomb waiting for the right fuse.

The same arc has also has Ahsoka turn and become archetypical Murderface Vamp Female Darksider #63, but I also give that a pass because she didn't actually turn: she was (effectively) possessed. She actually acts a rather lot like The Son, iirc.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 17th 2018 at 1:35:54 AM

Heads up, folks! It's our first trailer for Star Wars Resistance!

I'm gonna be perfectly honest and say my excitement has sunk beneath the sea level because the art style and what seems to be a fairly mundane children's cartoon with a Star Wars theme boostrapped to it thus far.

This just makes me want the final arc of Knights of Sidonia. It’s the animation.

Not enough to really judge the show itself, but it looks to be a lot more well, stand alone, than the heavy arcs of TCW and Rebels.

Edited by Beatman1 on Aug 17th 2018 at 11:29:46 AM

I like the art style reminds me of and old cartoon I saw as a kid call Skyland but I do agree with you on the plot.

How can you tell, from a minute of footage, all of which is probably from the premier, that it's more standalone?

Also, both TCW and Rebels also started with less heavily arc-based storytelling. And both also started pretty cartoony, too.