Disconnect between definition and examples: Mutually Fictional

The definition describes this as a crossover trope, where one or more characters from one show (Show A) end up in the setting of a show that's fictional to them, either because it's a Show Within a Show or because it's simply a different TV show (Show B). There, they discover that in Show B's world, Show A is fictional.

The examples go for the more simple and straightforward "In Show A, Show B exists as a work of fiction. But in Show B, Show A exists as a work of fiction." No crossover necessary, just mutual acknowledgement.

The title definitely seems to imply the broader definition. Should the writeup be changed to match? Should the trope as described have a separate page?

I think the broader definition is the correct one and it's the description here that's in the wrong.

The beginning of the description is confusing. That's the problem.

The pattern set up by the examples is not a trope, really. Take the case of the page image for instance: in Eastenders, Doctor Who is a tv show, just like in our reality; in Doctor Who, Eastenders is a tv show, just like in our reality. Bit of an interesting paradox but not much of a trope and utterly trivial. They can't even be related to "Show With A Show" because Eastenders and Doctor Who are real shows that I can watch.

Now, the description described a basis for fanfic and special episodes- it's a plot set up related to Refugee from TV Land but with mutual fictionality. It's certainly a trope and it is really nothing to do with the aforementioned pattern of the examples except that maybe you can use the words "mutual" in the description.

Yeah, I'm actually going to go ahead and blame both the description and the name. We could fix the description but the name is still broad and able to encompass both and sounds deceptively simple when it isn't.

This page still appears to need work. It is fairly confusing that the examples don't match the description.

I think it would be helpful to add a laconic version of this trope.

I'd like to check that the following wording would work (since I've only just come accross this trope) - suggestions appreciated:

Perhaps we should also create an image pickin entry for this trope since the disparity between the picture and the description is worse than the incorrect examples.

edited 17th Apr '11 4:38:45 AM by the1ultimate

Also, it's unclear how necessary the "MUTUAL" aspect is. For instance, I don't think any of the Comic Book examples truly fit a strict definition of Mutually Fictional.

AFAIK, while it's well established that the Flash of Earth-1 read comics featuring the Flash of Earth-2 as a boy, there was never any indication of the reverse (e.g., modern Earth-2 kids reading about "that new made-up hero Firestorm" or somesuch.

And while Static having read "Who's Who in the DC Universe" was a big help to him, there's no suggestion that Milestone Comics are published in the DC Universe.

The "reverse" part for these and other examples isn't specifically ruled out in most cases, but it's also not ruled in, and often seems unlikely. (Frequently, one universe is effectively treated as "more real" than the other when this trope comes up, and "going both ways" tends to make an already fanciful trope seem even more implausible.)

Ok I am flat out confused on this...What exactly is this trope?

Also would this be an example? In Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei one of the characters draws a 18+ Doujin called Naughty Teacher which showed up in Negima's visit to Comiket (a place where real doujin are sold) or when Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei makes large jabs at the Negima anime?

Or is it just instances of other works showing up on bookshelves or are read? Such as Nagi's rather large collection of real manga. Or Yuno from Hidamari Sketch owning the six volumes of the Hidamari Sketch manga in the anime.

Or does the have to be a two way?

Or am I completely off base here?

edited 17th Apr '11 8:17:45 AM by Raso

I've always understood this trope as being pretty much the same as Celebrity Paradox, except occurring between two fictional settings instead of between the work of fiction and Real Life.

And I'm bumping this because I just came in from another wrong wick on Leverage.

None of that is this trope. None of that sort of thing should be on this page. The trope is simply:

• In show A, they watch show B on TV. In show B, they watch show A on TV.

No, it's not, it's a crossover trope.

Ah, none of the examples use it as a crossover trope though so either the entire page is bad, or crossover isn't required.

At the risk of pimping a work I personally like, The Number Of The Beast by Heinlein is a case of characters from different universes meeting each other and discovering that each is a work of fiction in the other's universe. That is, in fact, the basic premise of the book — that all works of fiction are equally real, and the characters discover a way to get everyone together for a Massively Multiplayer Crossover.

No, not none. The Milestone Comics and DC Comics' Superman example, the Fan Fic example, the Through The Looking Glass example and there probably are loads of fanfic which do this, but they are fanfics, not a large category on the site.

However, indeed, most are not crossovers, that's what "Disconnect between definition and examples" is for. Probably down to people overreaching for examples or something and I do blame the broad name somewhat.

edited 12th May '11 2:38:29 PM by SomeSortOfTroper

As long as it is not yet agreed that the definition should be changed, I'm going to add a clarifying note.

I might as well delete the misleading pic while you're at it.

Some Sort Of Troper,

What would our options be?

I am not totally sure. Renaming it could be one option, as could broadening the description to allow for many of the examples to actually fit the trope.

That's not a case of broadening. The description makes it very clear. This is a crossover trope. It involves people travelling from one world to another and interacting. It's a different sort of thing from what the examples are, they don't even end up in the same namespace and there's no way to include the misuse by some single modifier. In fact, the trope lacks the requirement that two works have acknowledged each other as fictional at some point. It's just that they are both fictional to us and we have Like Reality, Unless Noted for a lot of works. So it's not like people have latched onto only one part.

Honestly, if it was one misuse, I'd delete it. If it was three, I'd delete it. Being the majority of the page, I would naturally think something is wrong here but...same prinicple applies: some misuse has snowballed. I can't jam it into the trope in anyway. It's a Round hole, Empire state building peg situation.

No really, there are two options- blame the name and snowballing misuse or just snowballing misuse. I've seen that tropes, once you clear out the page and wicks, return to normal but people might feel that the name is to blame.

I've taken those that don't fit in the examples and moved them to a folder on the discussion page. I'm won over to that it should have a page (heck I don't really know what came first), I could make one for them easily right away.

I'm also thinking we should rename because one can still get confused by them. Take Mutually Fictional and make it Mutually Fictional Crossover.

edited 2nd Jul '11 2:16:41 PM by SomeSortOfTroper

I don't see whats wrong with a very broad trope. And frankly if were going by the deleted examples there are some tropes which are far broader, which are mentioned on trope pages.