Spider-Man General Discussion

I mean, it was a welcome change from the typical Batgod/Batdick we were often getting.

Batman prepares for every eventuality and lines his outside underwear with absorbent padding.

That's just called being smart.

Excuse me, he did not "pee his pants."

He had a bladder spasm.

In any case, apparently Kevin Smith's Green Arrow comics were much better than his other stuff, although I haven't read them. I have read his Daredevil arc, which was good aside from the fact that, sigh, he managed to fridge another of Daredevil's love interests (Karen Page this time).

Say whatever you want about the Netflix Daredevil series, at least she never sold Matt's secret identity for a single hit of smack or was made to think she had AI Ds.

Deborah Ann Woll was quite insistent they not do that to Karen, i.e. selling Matt's identity for drugs. She couldn't believe that Karen would do that. In some ways the 2015 Daredevil series is a Reconstruction in that it goes back to Pre-Miller era Daredevil and brings old stuff back. I think the backlash that Frank Miller's gotten (deserved in my view though his best work is still good and holds up) has helped with that.

I have never been a fan of Kevin Smith as a film-maker. I couldn't sit through Clerks, and I disagree with the idea that The Empire Strikes Back (the supposed "darkest" Star Wars movie which happens to be the only one without any character death) is better than ROTJ. And I have never read his comics. I remember reading he was supposed to get a run on ASM and it's a good thing that didn't happen IMO. He happens to be good friends with Joe Quesada (who I believe did the art for his Daredevil story).

But in general Spider-Man is fairly sanitized. It's a good example whenever people bring up "Shared Universe bro" as an argument for criticisms about realism in Spider-Man. i.e. if Galactus then why not Clone Saga? The fact is that Spider-Man is classmates with Jessica Jones, friends with Daredevil and he's the first guy in the Marvel Universe to tussle with the Punisher. Yet compare the stuff that is canon in those stories. Jessica Jones' stories deal with rape and sexual assault, Daredevil and the Punisher also deal with dark stuff like human traffickers and so on. And none of that shows up in Spider-Man.

Kevin Smith and Joe Q are friends? That explains a lot.

Yeah, during Joe Quesada's Event Comics days, they got to be friends. In fact, they even have a cameo in Chasing Amy.

Then again, Smith and Quesada's Daredevil book sold like hotcakes, which meant that Marvel Knights ended up being a rousing success. And after Smith left the book, Quesada went on to hire this up-and-coming writer named Brian Michael Bendis and an artist named Alex Maleev who went on to have a huge impact on the book and the industry as a whole.

Joe Q. would also go one to hire a grieving father named Jeph Loeb who would later go on the head Marvel animation and kill off the Ultimate universe. As i understand it they were friends, but i don't think poor Jeph Loeb was in the right mindset to write.

I mean, Jeph Loeb is whole other thing that's complicated and sad. But if you want to know about then here goes:

• Loeb was actually much better known at DC, having had a bunch of well-regarded collaborations with Tim Sale, like Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, and Superman for All Seasons, as well as the (vastly overrated to me, but still apparently loved) storyline "Hush" with Jim Lee.
• So Quesada hired Loeb and Sale to do the same with Marvel characters, making books like Spider-Man: Blue (hey, there's the topic!), Daredevil: Yellow, and Hulk: Gray.
• Then, in 2005, Loeb's son Sam died of bone cancer. Loeb was still under contract at Marvel and lobbied hard to write the mini-series Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America as an outpouring of grief. It's probably still considered one of his best books.
• Then Loeb was handed the reins of Ultimates 3...and proceeded to utterly and completely demolish the characters, concluding with Ultimatum, which almost took sadistic pleasure in killing various characters off. (Not only is Wasp eaten by the Blob, but Dr. Strange is killed off in one panel by an enemy who was never even mentioned before.)
• Meanwhile, he was also handed the reins of Hulk, where he introduced the character of Red Hulk, a Villain Sue who managed to thrash everyone around him. This was mitigated somewhat by the fact that Loeb wasn't actually the only writer — Greg Pak was still writing the other Hulk book, so together, they managed to squeak out a storyline that ranged from okay to bad, but never as actively terrible as Ultimatum was. (It helped that Pak was able to use Loeb's characters in better storylines and eventually redeem them somewhat.)
• Then Loeb was given a position in Marvel Animation, taking over the last season of Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and eventually introducing new cartoons like Avengers Assemble and Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H., all of which were more geared towards children. (This isn't a criticism, just a note.)
• He did eventually return to comics to write the first six issues of the new Nova book, who was named Sam after Loeb's son. While many fans didn't like the character, the book itself got good reviews and Loeb handed it off to other writers who improved the book and character.
• In 2016, the long-awaited (it had been announced in 2008) Captain America: White came out. This was Loeb and Sale's final collaboration as of today and is generally considered just as good or better than his previous "color" books.

So there we go.

I am aware of most of Loeb's history, but this is still intriguing. It's also important to note that Loeb also did write the Superman/Batman series, and there was an arc i recall that had Superman and Batman meeting a boy named Sam in tribute to Sam Loeb. That was so heartbreaking, i honestly can't read the story again with that in mind. Despite Loeb utterly destroying the Ultimate verse and thus indirectly my favorite Spider-Man, not once did i hate him, the poor guy desperately needed a hug and time away from work. Plus the interactions i see him with fans shows that he's a pretty nice guy.

Mr. Loeb's story does run counter to the logic that "tragedy helps make great art" or whatever edgelord crap you see running around. Tragedy ruins people. Mr. Loeb also worked as producer for the Netflix shows. I will say one thing about Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum. As weak as it was and poorly executed, I don't think it was out-of-character or against the spirit of Ultimate Marvel. Nothing Loeb did there wasn't set up before. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch being all Lannister in Ultimate Marvel was set-up before that, the characters of the Ultimates were always jerks and a—holes. Magneto being a nutso with god delusions was also set up before. What I mean is, I don't think that but for Ultimates 3 or Ultimatum, Ultimate Marvel would be thought of as good. It had problems well before that. "A stands for France", Hank Pym being even worse than 616, all that was done before. And the extreme violence you see is not far from the opening stories of Ultimate X-Men, especially Weapon X (which Mark Millar said was down to writing that when he had surgery done and being in a state of chronic pain). Hulk was a cannibal.

So for all that people rag on Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum, rightly so, I don't think it ever felt out of character or against the spirit, or against the rules of what was established before.

As terrible as Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum were which is on him, it’s part of an overall trend where there was little editorial oversight of the ultimate universe at all

After Ultimates 3 it was readily apparent that Loeb didn’t have a grasp on the ultimate characters, writing them like the mainstream characters but with more sex and violence.

It’s also editorial or higher that decided that Ultimatum would be written as a big line wide crossover where tons of people would be killed

Though that’s not wrong. Sans Spider-Man the Ultimate universe was a bit shit.

Edited by Bocaj on Feb 23rd 2019 at 9:22:59 AM

The Ultimate Universe characters might be jerks but so are their 616 counterparts. Just look at Civil War, Wolverine's crimes in his past and his sliminess towards Jean Grey, Xavier's lusting after Jean and his numerous dirty secrets etc. Even Magneto isn't that much different from his 616 counterpart.

Civil War was bleed from the ultimate universe to the 616 and it shows

Millar brought it with him

It's not like superheroes fighting each other was unheard of in the Marvel universe before that story.

Yes, but 616 also has the benefit of decades of history showing those characters not being assholes, at least not all the time.

Well Ultimate Cap, just for one example, did become less of an asshole over time and a lot of the douchey and villainous characters ended up dead any ways.

Edited by windleopard on Feb 23rd 2019 at 7:50:42 AM

This kind of equivalence is dangerous and false. One can say stuff like Avengers #200 is outside the norm but in the case of Ultimate Universe, Avengers #200 or stuff that extreme is default. Xavier never acted on those feelings unlike Ultimate Xavier who dated students like Ultimate Emma Frost. And Xavier having feelings for Jean was only in early stories, it faded later on in Claremont's run. Captain America is not some Eagleland Type 1 Neoconservative. And of course Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are a normal brother and sister who are totally Westermack'd.

Hulk wasn't a cannibal and canonically never killed anyone in collateral damage until the events leading to Planet Hulk. Unbelievable I know but then so is The Punisher's bullets never hitting any innocent or bystander because Frank Castle is that good (aka the "last" Punisher story which finally happend in Ultimate Marvel during the Death of Ultimate Spider-Man where The Punisher accidentally hits Spider-Man, surrenders and quits because he killed an innocent and lost his purpose). Those are some unwritten things that writers/editors impose. Ultimate Hulk went the other extreme, Hulk doesn't do collateral damage, he does actual damage being a monster who eats people and a serial killer with triple-to-quadruple digit body counts.

Xavier may not have acted on his feelings for Jean but he still had all kinds of morally questionable if not outright evil actions and skeletons in his closet. The guy had a long history of mind wipes and faking his death. Also, the responsible thing to do if you find yourself thinking naughty thoughts about your student is to remove yourself from their proximity. Hell, this repressing of his feelings for Jean was a factor in the creation of Onslaught.

There was never anything normal about Pietro and Wanda and their relationship had tons of Incest Subtext before the Ultimate Universe.

The Hulk was stated to have killed people in John Byrne's run. And the guy is supposed to be a manifestation of Bruce's anger and malice.

I'll admit that Captain America wasn't really like his Ultimate counterpart (at least until Civil War) but with a lot of the guys the UU jerkified, it took very little changes to make them that way.

Don't forget having spinning sawblades of doom as part of a training course. Xavier is a terrible teacher, it's a wonder more X-Men haven't died.

Now i'm not too familiar with the Hulk, but at least in the stories i read featuring him, he has caused collateral damage and an inconsistent body count( Seriously Marvel can't decide if the Hulk murdered people or not) but he just wants to be left alone in peace, in contrast to Ultimate Hulk who gleefully and willingly causes mayham and eats people. I could be wrong about that but i do know that John Byrne basically turned Hulk into a Godzilla story.

Now there is a difference between Pietro and Wanda having incest subtext and actually doing the deed (uggghh) Plus in the main verse, they were married to other people.

It’s funny how Magneto was considered the “bad headmaster” when he tried to keep the students from getting killed and then they snuck out and died anyway and resented him for it

I think the incest subtext comes because artists and writers can't fathom the idea of two young hot brother and sister not having any interest in each other, so them being brother and sister didn't bother them as much as the exploitation angle.

But again just because a few dropped the ball, that doesn't mean that was the norm and pattern. Quicksilver was involved with Crystal while Scarlet Witch was part of a lot of romance stories in the Avengers.

I don't remember any incest subtext from Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch during the Silver or Bronze Age.

Now, Scarlet Witch and Magneto? Yes, there was that one issue where Magneto mind-controlled her to dance for him. (This was pre-him knowing she was his daughter, mind you.)

If you excuse me I need bleach.

I’ve read a couple hundred Avengers and I don’t remember any incest subtext either

Maybe people are just stupid idiots who don’t know what a sibling relationship looks like and Mark Millar is a gross person with the sensibilities of a thirteen year old?

Edited by Bocaj on Feb 23rd 2019 at 4:00:45 AM