Drafting a clearer definition of "Fan-Speak."

I'm not saying that it should be "stuff used off the wiki". I'm saying that the way the term "fanspeak" itself is used off the wiki is broader than the way you are defining it. And we've seen what happens when we try to use a term that has a widely-used off-wiki definition to mean something else on-wiki. We wind up with page decay or rampant misuse, because people coming to the wiki don't look up how we're using it — they use it the same way they normally do.

@Eddie: Even if you're utterly opposed to having an index like this, making it mean something else than what most people think it means will cause a whole lot of unnecessary confusion. You can nuke it and name the index you're trying to make something else, for all the gain and none of the headache.

edited 27th Jan '11 2:41:03 PM by TripleElation

I agree with what Madrugada's saying. People are going to have trouble understanding what you define as Fan Speak because Fan Speak is a pre-existing term, meaning something completely different than how you're using it on this wiki. It's rather confusing, honestly.

Yeah, there are decade old fanspeak glossaries on the net, that list UST, Fanfic, or Gorn as fanspeak terms. You can't just tell them all that they are wrong, bcause yesterday you rewrote your page about it, to make things more practical for your site.

I agree with Kris. I had trouble even understanding this thread because I couldn't wrap my head around why Fast Eddie was using the term "Fan Speak" as a stand-in for the overall effort.

Yeah this is why I thought this thread was about something very different at the start of this thread.

Agreed. Let's focus on Natter Bait now and leave fan-speak for later.

Alright. Fan-Speak can't be the name of an index. Sounds like the term itself could stand to be on whatever the new index is called. The new index will be a listing of articles providing definitions for terms used by fans for things other than tropes. What name would we like to have? If someone suggests a name with the word 'trope' in, I think I'll burst an aneurysm.

edited 27th Jan '11 2:55:50 PM by FastEddie

Well, first of all, we must define how it is different from Audience Reactions.

Which one - Fan-Speak or Natter Bait?

I'd say that this fan jargon is mostly about Audience Reaction, it's true. Maybe dropping the index altogether would be more useful than creating a new one, if Audience Reactions covers it. I'll just be able to think to myself of the wiki as a whole as one giant fan jargon glossary and stop confusing people with my fussy little distinctions.

edited 27th Jan '11 3:06:22 PM by FastEddie

That's a plan, I suppose.

x4 Is there really a difference? That sounds like exactly what we are looking for.

edited 27th Jan '11 3:08:37 PM by Raso

Yeah, I always took Fan Speak to be a parallel to jargon in definition. It's just that some fandoms use specific, or even conflicting jargon. In which case a list of fandoms, their terms, and a link to the proper trope/reaction/trivia page would be helpful.

Then you have to pick which one is "proper", dissing the fandom that use the "improper" term. Synonyms can be given in the article or just be around in the redirects.

I think the clearest distinction that I can come up with is that Tropes are Tropes, regardless of what terms are used to refer to them in various fandoms, by critics, in the industry, etc. A Repeat Cut might be known as a Triple Take somewhere else. Our purpose is to catalogue tropes. If a trope has multiple terms that identify it, we incorporate them as redirects.

The distinction between Trope and Opinion (or Audience Reaction, etc.) exists independently of the terminology used to describe them.

What was previously here, translated into english, per request:

Items that are both Audience Reactions and Fan Speak probably tend to attract natter because they deal with familiar terms that get used in fandom controversies.

But there may be a larger class of Natter Bait that we're missing here that happens to include "Audience Reaction and Fan Speak", and it would be a shame to not have the measures being taken affect them.

edited 27th Jan '11 3:46:12 PM by TripleElation

Now translate that in English please.

The word Fan-Speak has become just a noise to me now. Like the name in a language you don't know for a ritual in a religion you know nothing about.

"May I speak with your spiritual leader?"

"Sorry, he is in fanspeak right now, and cannot be disturbed."

edited 27th Jan '11 3:46:31 PM by FastEddie

Present plan: Turn the fan-speak entry into More Like A Footnote Than Anything Else just defining the term and zap the fanspeak index. Everything on it is on another index, as well.

It is along the lines of Technobabble

Don't forget to kill the banners then.

Now that I've read the page description I can understand where Eddie is coming from. It basically amounts to "yo, here are some tropes". Maybe someone can come up with some objective criterion for what makes an item Fan Speak, if only to have the non-index scar tissue say something substantial.

And while we're waiting for the fan-speak index to pass into history, can I bother you guys with my administrivia / disambiguation page / project / thing again? Guess I already did. I really think this is something we need to have, even if we haven't finished sorting out every little detail yet. Note that the fan-speak section is gone now and a new somewhat controversial exception was added for Trivia. As previously, any feedback would be appreciated.

Are still talking about creating a name for the natter-bait YMMV tropes that is not "YMMVs", or did we move off that topic long ago and I'm delusional?

edited 27th Jan '11 5:57:58 PM by KrisMahai