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Cutlist and Make A Separate Trope?: Joshikousei

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LouieW Loser from Babycowland
Loser
Dec 31st 2010 at 11:54:41 AM

A while ago, I asked and was granted permission to split the Joshikousei trope into the Sailor Fuku trope and a trope about schoolgirl slice of life series (this is the only evidence of that discussion that I could find unfortunately). I created the first trope, but I was unsure if making the second one was really a good idea given the lack of other subcategories for slice of life series. I apologize for not taking this action earlier, but since I did not, I do not know if it would be appropriate for me to go along with creating the second trope without proof that people approved of making it and cutlisting Joshikousei

Anyway, the real questions I have here are whether Joshikousei has any value as a trope and if I should go to YKTTW with Schoolgirl Slice Of Life in its place.

Personally, I do not believe that Japanese School Girl is a real trope and that seems to me to be what Joshikousei is right now.

I realize that I do not have much experience with this kind of thing though and I am open to hearing reasons why that trope should continue to be around.

edited 31st Dec '10 11:56:56 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Dec 31st 2010 at 12:08:55 PM

Schoolgirl Slice of Life sounds like a legitimate genre category to me. There certainly seem to be enough examples.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Dec 31st 2010 at 5:10:46 PM

Huh?

I thought the plan was to have Joshikousei be the Sailor Fuku trope (with one of the terms the redirect) and for the creation of new school girl slice of life trope.

Otherwise we just split a trope into a viable trope and a non-viable trope that we are now going to cut. Which does not make any sense.

LouieW Loser from Babycowland
Loser
Dec 31st 2010 at 7:01:42 PM

Sackett, the original plan (as far as I know) was to split Joshikousei into Sailor Fuku and Schoolgirl Slice Of Life. I made the first trope, but I was lazy and put off creating the second one. Thus, we still have a Joshikousei trope and I wanted to get permission to recommend that to be cut again rather than put it on the cutlist without any warning.

I realize that I might be being overcautious here, but I wondered if anyone actually had a reason to keep Joshikousei.

Anyway, I will go ahead with the Schoolgirl Slice Of Life trope in YKTTW.

edited 31st Dec '10 7:02:29 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Dec 31st 2010 at 7:13:23 PM

My suggestion is to make Schoolgirl Slice Of Life and then rather than cutlisting Joshiwhateveritis, make it into a disambiguation page; something like "If you're looking for the outfit, it's at Sailor Fuku; if you're looking for the genre, it's at Schoolgirl Slice Of Life." 406 inbound links is a lot to break in one fell swoop.

edited 31st Dec '10 7:14:13 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
LouieW Loser from Babycowland
Loser
Dec 31st 2010 at 7:30:20 PM

Madrugada, I did not know we could actually make disambiguation pages, but that sounds reasonable to me.

If someone else wants to take the lead on this he or she can by the way. I just figure that I might as well take responsibility for it since I was supposed to do it the first time.

edited 31st Dec '10 7:32:06 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Dec 31st 2010 at 8:14:43 PM

Take a look at Pettanko for a good example of what you're doing. It's set up the way Foxy Mod proposes.

edited 31st Dec '10 8:15:14 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Dec 31st 2010 at 10:43:04 PM

Whatever trope gets launched can it please have an english title?

Jan 1st 2011 at 6:20:07 AM

The manga/anime series High School Girls should probably be added to that disambigulation page as well, since its Japanese name is literally Joshikousei.

Actually, looking at that page it only has 28 wicks and 9 inbound. Maybe we should move that over to the anime namespace and clear up the High School Girls page in mainspace.

LouieW Loser from Babycowland
Loser
Jan 2nd 2011 at 11:27:52 AM

Ghilz,

Whatever trope gets launched can it please have an english title?
I want it to have an English title as well and that is the plan right now. Feel free to go to the YKTTW discussion to help ensure that happens.

I admit that I am a bit confused about how to make the disambiguation page. Should I basically take the current Joshikousei trope, cut the examples, and add "If you're looking for the outfit, it's at Sailor Fuku; if you're looking for the genre, it's at Schoolgirl Slice Of Life." or something like that? Might it be a better idea to make Joshikousei a redirect of some kind and have High School Girls be the title of the disambiguation page?

edited 2nd Jan '11 11:51:56 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Jan 2nd 2011 at 12:39:55 PM

All a disambiguation page does is say "We have several pages that are all related to this name. Pick the one you're looking for from this list". It's basically a really, really small index.

The disambiguation page should always be the ambiguous term itself, since looking for that term is what's going to run into the ambiguity. It should not have examples or anything more than a minimal explanation of the pages it's listing. So after the other two pages are both launched, and all the examples on the current page have been properly re-distributed between them, delete all the examples from Joshiwhatever and replace the current description with something along the lines of

"The term Joshiwhosits strictly refers to the Japanese sailor-suit-like school uniform, but it is also used to refer to the genre of schoolgirl slice-of-life anime.

If you're looking for examples of the uniform itself, that's at Sailor Fuku.
If you're looking for the page about the genre, that's at Schoolgirl Slice Of Life."

edited 2nd Jan '11 12:42:00 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
HappyMaskMan Rock Solid!
Rock Solid!
Jan 2nd 2011 at 12:42:34 PM

Hmm, well, from what I understand, Joshi Kousei is about the Japanese cultural archetype of a female high school student. And Sailor Fuku is just about a specific associated outfit, right? And we have a possible article for a genre, "Schoolgirl Slice of Life"? Now, I don't think these "outfit" and "genre" articles detract everything from Joshi Kousei's territory.. so I think all three are able to co-exist with each other.

LouieW Loser from Babycowland
Loser
Jan 2nd 2011 at 1:50:44 PM

Madrugada, Thanks for the help here. I am thinking that it would be a good idea to hold off on making that page until the Schoolgirl Slice Of Life trope is launched.

Happy Mask Man, I believe I understand what you are saying, but as the trope is currently used (based on the examples on its page), I do not see anything that is unique to Joshikousei that would not fit better in either Sailor Fuku or the trope I purposed. I would be interested to hear any reasons you have for keeping the trope as is though. Personally, I think that in its current form it is essentially "Japanese high school girl," which in my opinion is not a trope.

edited 2nd Jan '11 1:51:57 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
HappyMaskMan Rock Solid!
Rock Solid!
Jan 2nd 2011 at 4:01:45 PM

Well, in its current form, Joshi Kousei is a useful notes page with examples. That kind of page is common for concepts that demand explanation and are simple enough to list examples of, but don't have quite the substance to be proper tropes on their own. Some similar pages include Roma and Les Cops Sportif. So even if you do not think it is really a trope, it is functioning quite healthily as what it is.

If you want distinction between the pages, Joshi Kousei is a page about the Japanese female high school student archetype. Sailor Fuku is a particular outfit associated with JK. You don't have to wear the outfit to be a JK. And you don't have to be a JK to wear the outfit. Similarly, you can't expect every series with JK to fall under "slice of life". All of these pages have their own uses.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 2nd 2011 at 4:45:15 PM

Also, while you might not think that "Japanese School Girl" is a trope, the concept of a school girl does seem to be a dominant archetype in Japanese media. Archetypes are tropes. Don't think of the trope as "Japanese School Girl". Think of it as "The common archetype of the school girl in Japanese media" which is a trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Jan 2nd 2011 at 5:33:58 PM

I'm bowing out now, because you guys are discussing things I have insufficient knowledge to contribute meaningfully to.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Jan 2nd 2011 at 6:30:42 PM

You know, we can probably keep the useful notes aspect of the page and still make it a disambiguation page. Just cut the examples.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 2nd 2011 at 6:38:12 PM

The thing is, the page as it is right now looks like it might be a seperate trope from any of the proposed ones. It's about a certain character archetype that is common in Japanese media that we don't have another trope for, but we've got a lot of subtropes for. Things like Huge Schoolgirl are subtropes of this trope as written. It just needs a bit more on how they're commonly portrayed in media and a bit less of a linguistics lesson.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
LouieW Loser from Babycowland
Loser
Jan 2nd 2011 at 8:07:42 PM

Happy Mask Man,

If you want distinction between the pages, Joshi Kousei is a page about the Japanese female high school student archetype. Sailor Fuku is a particular outfit associated with JK. You don't have to wear the outfit to be a JK. And you don't have to be a JK to wear the outfit. Similarly, you can't expect every series with JK to fall under "slice of life". All of these pages have their own uses.
Okay, I think that makes some sense. I have no real issue with keeping Joshikousei around as a normal trope so long as the archetype part of the trope is emphasized and all of the examples that are just "character W wears Sailor Fuku" are dropped. I am glad that I made this topic then because I was curious to see if there were any objections to taking away the examples from Joshikousei (since last time I brought this topic up there really were not many that I remember).

I hope I did not come off as harsh earlier, I might have gotten too worked up about this thing.

shimaspawn,

The thing is, the page as it is right now looks like it might be a seperate trope from any of the proposed ones. It's about a certain character archetype that is common in Japanese media that we don't have another trope for, but we've got a lot of subtropes for. Things like Huge Schoolgirl are subtropes of this trope as written. It just needs a bit more on how they're commonly portrayed in media and a bit less of a linguistics lesson.
I agree with the part in bold. I may just be a bit slow, but I had trouble getting the archetype part of the trope from its examples and description until I read it a few times so I do not think it is very clear.

I do think that the trope could still work without examples though, but I am interested in hearing more reasons to keep them.

edited 2nd Jan '11 8:10:28 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 2nd 2011 at 8:12:59 PM

I think we should limit it to just school girls where no one else in the cast is a school girl. Things like Inuyasha where the cast consists of a bunch of demons with magical powers... and a Japanese school girl. Shows that are entirely set in schools would fall under the slice of life.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
AceNoctali A lil' bentô ? from France
A lil' bentô ?
Jan 3rd 2011 at 5:36:55 AM

Shimaspawn, I disagree, I think we should keep all examples fitting in Happy Mask Man's comment :

"If you want distinction between the pages, Joshi Kousei is a page about the Japanese female high school student archetype. Sailor Fuku is a particular outfit associated with JK. You don't have to wear the outfit to be a JK. And you don't have to be a JK to wear the outfit. Similarly, you can't expect every series with JK to fall under "slice of life". All of these pages have their own uses. "

, because series such as Tokimeki Memorial, Mitsumete Knight and Love Plus don't have the specific aspect of Schoolgirl Slice Of Life, while there's an ensemble of High School Girls, and the HSG trope extremely strong in all of those work, with Tokimeki Memorial even having it as one of its main points. Mitsumete Knight has the least strong of the three, since the story's focus is the war you're fighting for as a mercenary, but when you have a third of the cast composed of HS Gs, various Events related to their school life, and two of those girls (Sophia and Raizze, with Raizze being an enemy spy who became an HSG for an easy cover) being the central heroines of the story, you know that element can't be missed.

"Your kindness gives me the presentiment I can be reborn. Now, I want to believe at least in you." - Kaori Yae
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 3rd 2011 at 12:24:00 PM

I can be ok with that argument. You seem to know a bit more about the subject than I do. Any chance you can help tighten up the description on the current page some?

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
LouieW Loser from Babycowland
Loser
Jan 4th 2011 at 3:35:58 PM

I found the old crowner in case anyone was wondering how this was decided earlier. I suppose I could also set up another crowner or something, but I think this one gives one a decent idea of what people in this subforum thought about the original split.

edited 4th Jan '11 3:36:26 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
AceNoctali A lil' bentô ? from France
A lil' bentô ?
Jan 6th 2011 at 5:12:23 PM

^^ I'd be glad to be of help to you, Shimaspawn, but quite frankly, I'm not that versed in that trope either, and I don't know how I could improve the description (aside from adding a paragraph suggesting redirecting Sailor Fuku and Schoolgirl Slice Of Life-specific examples there. BTW, if we create the second trope, maybe Joshikousei could become the Super-Trope of the other two).

In fact, as it is I don't find any problem with it, it's a Useful Notes page after all. If you could guide me on what would be needed to improve it, I could try and see what I can do.

edited 6th Jan '11 5:15:37 PM by AceNoctali

"Your kindness gives me the presentiment I can be reborn. Now, I want to believe at least in you." - Kaori Yae
Trombonista Gumi-chan
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