Lord of the Rings

Ungoliant is proof that before there was nothing there were monsters

By all indications Frodo was genuinely sincere in showing mercy to Saruman, doing so in the hopes that in the long run it might have some faint possibility of doing him good, and out of respect for what Saruman once was. (And because Frodo is weary of conflict; and perhaps, given some of Tolkien’s comments on Frodo’s mindset after the Ring’s destruction, because Frodo feels that after having sought to claim the Ring - even as a result of intense mental and spiritual strain - Frodo feels he no longer has the right to judge anyone). Saruman interprets it as Cruel Mercy because he’s twisted to the point where he is incapable of recognizing or appreciating any good act as goodness, not because he’s correctly assessed Frodo’s intent.

Frodo’s words are: “He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.”

Tolkien’s relevant words on Frodo: “It was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproch: he saw himself and all that he had done as a broken failure.”

Tolkien is saying that this is how Frodo viewed himself, not how Tolkien viewed the matter: “I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been - say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock. That appeals to have been the judgement of Gandalf and Aragorn and of all who learned the full story of his journey. Certainly nothing would be concealed by Frodo! But what Frodo himself felt about the events is quite another matter.”

You know, I never really understood that moment. After Grima kills Saruman, he runs away and the archers shoot him... why again?

He's not a threat to the Shire (or the protagonists) at this point and he's running away. It feels odd.

Similarly, his dead in a bonus scene in the movies seems to only exist because he died in the books (albeit much later) and it's similarly nonsensical.

1) Grima just killed Saruman after Saruman claimed that killing him would blight the Shire, and given the power of Saruman’s voice many of the hobbits at least half believed it. They were startled and scared.

2) Grima was an enemy with a knife, and they were reacting within an instant of him pulling a knife.

Edited by Galadriel on Feb 16th 2021 at 12:23:13 PM

"Ungoliant is proof that before there was nothing there were monsters "

Elderich horror and low key cosmic horror in tolken legendarium? more likey that you think!

You don't let someone who murdered someone in front of you just run away.

Frodo might also have been thinking about Gollum when he offered mercy to Saruman.

“Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.'

Gandalf: 'Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."

Frodo: offers Saruman mercy and lets him go

Saruman: immediately gets offed by Grima

Grima: gets turned into a human pincushion by the other hobbits

Frodo: Oop, that didn't work out as I expected...

Edited by Millership on Feb 24th 2021 at 12:47:30 AM

As Dildo would put it: "Pity stayed my hand: "It's a pity I've run out of bullets!".

Edited by Gaon on Feb 23rd 2021 at 10:54:14 AM

I recently finally came to read Unfinished Tales and I was a bit surprised how scared Saruman was about the Nazgul. Tolkien has always been vague about Power Levels (in lack of a better word), but I always assumed that Saruman and later Gandalf the White should be more powerful than them. After all, Gandalf managed to defend himself against all nine of them when he was still Gandalf the Grey. Or is this just a sign that Saruman was simply way over his head the entire time?

The Power Levels of the Nazgûl seem to vary depending on the scene, but their strength seems directly related to Sauron's strength, and that waxes over the course of the narrative. Tolkien spends a lot of time on the idea that beings of power have finite amounts of it at any given time and must reserve strength for when it is truly needed.

Narratively, this serves to maintain the tension of whether Gandalf could really take on the Nine by himself or if their confrontations are more tests of will than they are outright battles to the death. There's a lot of feinting and plans within plans going on.

Remember that Sauron's primary goal isn't to murder everyone who looks at him funny but to get the One Ring, and to do that he has to tease it out of wherever it's being hidden. Having the Nazgûl spend their strength fighting some dopey wizard isn't an efficient use of it.

Another theme that runs throughout Tolkien's stuff is that power can be burned off or squandered on certain creations. In the end, both Morgoth and Saruman were pathetically diminished by all the power that they'd lavished on things outside themselves (Morgoth on marring Arda and twisting it into his image; Saruman on the works of Orthanc and the Uruk-Hai).

Sauron, at least, seemed clever enough to avoid empowering the Nazgûl beyond his current abilities or requirements, or empowering them at his ultimate expense. Maybe he should have applied that lesson to certain Rings we could mention!

It seems like the One Ring had to have that much of Sauron's power tied to its creation in order for it to work. The power had to come from somewhere, and since magic in Middle-Earth was already fading away Sauron had to use his own soul as the power source.

The "Morgoth's Ring" essay would actually hint that the One Ring was Sauron's way to stave off the same power decay that affected Morgoth. The rings of power appear to basically function as magical dynamos to preserve magic that should be fading (both due the natural fading of magic and the general concept of magical creatures having finite levels of magic in Tolkien).

It seems like Sauron basically saw what happened to his boss and specifically conceptualized the One Ring as a way to sidestep that inherent decay and keep himself strong (at the cost of giving him a obvious weak point). Fitting the whole Industrialized Evil motifs Tolkien loves, The One Ring is basically a magical engine.

There's a reason that when the One Ring and by extension the rest of the Rings of Power were destroyed, all magic faded away even faster.

Well their main intention was to sustain the magic to begin with. Rivendell, Lothlorien, and Mordor all stayed around while their Rings were intact and in Middle-earth.

That was how "Annatar" tried to convince the Elves when he offered the Rings of Power to them. Their actual purpose of course was to make it easier for Sauron to enslave them.

Edited by M84 on Feb 26th 2021 at 12:47:43 AM

And why Mordor basically collapses when the Ring is destroyed.

I just pictured Sauron at his computer hitting the delete key on all his buildings because he's a sore loser

No no, Sauron is the guy who threaded every electronic device in his house through one outlet (with a million surge protectors), and then was surprised when someone finally unplugged it at the source.

Palpatine is the asshole deleting everything because he's a sore loser.

Seriously. His response to his first death was "Burninate even imperaial loyalist planets in Operation Cinder just to spite the Rebels." His entire plan with his second life was "Equip every Star Destroyer with a planet-busting laser to threaten them into submission, and if I die, blow them to hell anyway."

Sauron wasn't dumb enough to try that shit. Sauron tried to be the puppetmaster of puppetmasters, but miscalculated completely and had no contingencies at all for "what if this is a bad idea?"

Edited by Rytex on Mar 8th 2021 at 10:50:07 AM

The one who basically decided to Rage Quit and decided to level the entirety of creation after realizing he lost was actually Morgoth. Sauron was comparatively more stable.

Sauron had to revise his plan constantly. His first plan with the One Ring was to mind control the Elves' leaders through the Three Rings. That didn't work since they were able to resist long enough to take off the Rings.

Then he gave Seven Rings to Dwarves. That didn't work - the greedy buggers just used the Rings to find gold and got themselves eaten by Dragons.

Then he gave Nine Rings to Men. And that finally hit paydirt.

And then things went pear-shaped when Isildur got lucky and cut off his ring finger.

Edited by M84 on Mar 9th 2021 at 1:14:08 AM

Though correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't said greed the result of those rings.

The Dwarves were resistant to the mind control aspect of the Rings, but they succeeded in amplifying their natural tendency towards greed. That's part of how the Rings work: they take your negative traits and bring them out. Whatever you desire, be it wealth, power, love, the preservation of the past, the Rings turn that into an obsession.

If you think Thorin was nasty over the Arkenstone, just imagine him ten times worse. That's what a Ring would have done to him. Also, Dwarves with the Rings never "fade" in the same way as Elves and Men. They can't be enslaved to Sauron and become wraiths.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 8th 2021 at 12:39:43 PM