Avatar: The Last Airbender

Regarding The Western Air Temple, I'd scrap Toph knowing the truth about Zuko's Heel–Face Turn right off the bat due to her earthbending.

Her Living Lie Detector powers are just another set of skills in her earthbending repertoire that makes her overpowered, and in a narrative sense, is an overrated skill that fluctuates in quality as the plot demands it. When it comes to a situation when it would actually be useful — like say, Azula — then Toph becomes useless in that scenario.

Also, as I said several pages back, that would also help Toph get some much-needed Character Development as well as exploring her dynamic as The Baby of the Bunch.

Seriously, what works better?

A) Toph knowing Zuko is telling the truth instantly and spending the rest of the episode trying to get her friends to agree?

OR

B) Toph being in the dark just as much as her friends are, but due to being the team member least affected by the war, she's willing to put her own idealism and optimism to the test and this time take her turn in offering a hand of friendship to Zuko, while reminding her older friends that once upon a time, they were willing to do the same thing too (Aang and Katara especially)?

It's not a debate.

Option B would've worked better and done wonders for Toph's character.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 3:51:43 AM

Now lets be fair here. The thing with Azula was literally the only time time anyone managed to beat Toph's lie detecting powers...and you gotta admit it was damned funny. Outside of that, it was always pretty useful.

....you know, I kinda see your point.

For what? Blackmailing and teasing her friends?

Being a Deus ex Machina for situations where the kids come up against a person with good deception skills?

The Ember Island Players would've worked much better if it wasn't such an eerily prophetic prediction of how the live-action movie would turn out, even if that was just a coincidence.

If the theme of the episode was making the kids realize that they appear to be the bad guys to the other side of the war, then episode should have focused more on exploring that topic rather than poking holes in the show, teasing the viewers, and having Toph crack frankly mean-spirited jokes at her friends and getting off scot-free for that.

In fact, Toph's jokes caused quite a bit of the Mood Whiplash in that episode (along with others).

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 3:52:37 AM

I don't agree with that assessment. Toph having an actual reason to go against the group instead of blindly relying on optimism (which has never been a part of her character?) works better given the actual situation and who they're talking about.

I agree in principle that real drama motivated by character and personality is always better than space whale drama motivated strictly by how a story's magic superpowers apply to a given situation.

But I also agree that if someone was going to go against the group and make an idealistic stand out of sheer optimism for Zuko, Toph wouldn't really be the right character for that.

Toph wouldn't be blindly relying on optimism and idealism, she would just be less jaded than her friends in trusting Zuko and taking him at his word.

Placing her trust in him even if she doesn't know that he's truly on their side is a lot more meaningful than her just knowing he's alright via overpowered Deus ex Machina powers.

Given Toph's dynamic as the youngest group member and the kid least affected by the war, she very well could've done so, and it would've served a good purpose of giving her some Character Development, of which she is sorely lacking in comparison to her friends.

With the exception of Suki.

Now, The Chase is my least favorite episode, due to Toph being an irresponsible and unhelpful brat and not having to face up to it.

(Gee, that's quite an unfortunate recurring element of Toph's character in the show.)

So instead of the subplot of everyone getting crankier at each other due to Toph not helping out and a severe lack of sleep, I'd replace that with Aang beginning to learn about Earthbending.

The Chase could have him learning about the power that Earthbending offers him, as well as the basics of the art.

Bitter Work could then focus on him refining his technique and exploring the more advanced skills.

That also gets rid of the weird implications that he hasn't bothered to start learning Earthbending until the Bitter Work episode — despite Toph having travelled with the group for several days at that point already.

And as canon stands, it's also odd that Bitter Work is the only episode in Book 2 to primarily focus on Aang learning Earthbending.

So having another episode featuring him learning about Earthbending would fix that.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 5:15:19 AM

She does make those arguments though, it's just she has an actual basis to be making them, that the others ignore, which I think is a good compromise.

What you're calling meaningful, I'd call foolish and out of nowhere. Even putting everything else aside they already have reason to distrust claims of Zuko changing; that was the bases of Katara's resentment for most of the rest of the season.

"If you're nothing without the suit (or your powers), you shouldn't have it."

Tell me then, would Toph have made the same decision if she didn't have her Earthbending to help her?

As I said, she only makes that decision due to her Living Lie Detector powers kicking in.

No character growth, no placing of trust, no calculated risk-taking.

She gets her wish of knowledge granted right on the spot.

Sokka and Aang got over their resentment of Zuko soon enough, though.

But Katara also had the added baggage of her mother's murder and was projecting that pain onto Zuko.

It wasn't just due to the fact that he betrayed her at Ba Sing Se.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 5:20:46 AM

Toph hadn't been hurt by Zuko before so she was more willing to play ball with Zuko while Aang, Katara and Sokka and aren't willing to given how many times he's tried to kill them.

Edited by lycropath on Jun 26th 2020 at 10:20:50 AM

And that dynamic could have (and should have) been the sole main driving force behind her reason to trust him.

Rather than just sensing that he's telling the truth right off the bat.

I mean there is no reason why it can't be both.

And I'm disagreeing with the notion that her just putting faith in Zuko would indicate any of those things.

I've been unconvinced by most of your arguments against Topph and her powers, and this isn't turning out any different.

I also don't see why the reality of Toph growing up untouched by the war couldn't be brought into play in that situation.

Her parents aside, she grew up in a place that was still peaceful and tranquil and unaffected by the Fire Nation armies.

If Toph acknowledged her friends' pain and encouraged them to take the higher road, that would've been better for the story and for her character journey, rather than just throwing shade at them for "being the blind ones" and pragmatically stating that they need Zuko to teach Aang.

It's not just Toph's powers that I have beef with. It's also how she's written as a character.

To be frank, most of Toph's awesome moments come from her earthbending, rather than how she behaves as a character.

And no, savage remarks and jokes at her friends' expense don't count.

Compare her to literally everyone else in the team, even Suki, and it's clear that the other kids have awesome character moments that aren't just solely about their bending or fighting skills.

She's also the only main character in the show that I've seen who frequently gets away with acting like a brat.

And it seems to me that for most people, the meaner she acts, the better she is.

What. The. F**k?

And finally, if her powers get in the way of her failing, learning lessons and becoming a better and wiser character, then yes, that's a sign that she's overpowered and that her powers are overly dominating her character and her journey.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 5:46:33 AM

You're not giving Toph enough credit. She's someone who was restricted her whole life by her parents but managed to break out of that and escaped. She remains headstrong and convicted, and has a disregard for rules and traditions. That makes her interesting on her own, and doesn't need a rapid shift in her personality.

Also her role in trusting Zuko more than the team was precisely because she didn't fight him. The rest of the Gaang knew Zuko was telling the truth since Toph told him, but didn't think he made up for it.

Sokka: Oh, hooray! In a lifetime of evil, at least he didn't add animal cruelty to the list.

Edited by Moroaica on Jun 26th 2020 at 10:41:25 AM

I have issues with how Toph is written as well; I simply don't share yours/agree with what you think would be an improvement.

If you're a soldier fighting in a war, disregarding rules and being headstrong can get you and your teammates killed.

The show should've reined in Toph a little more than it actually did.

And that's why Toph being in the dark as much as her friends were would've made her choice to trust Zuko all the more meaningful and significant.

She's not doing it because her earthbending tells her it's completely alright.

She's doing it out of a sense of trust, compassion and mercy, and in the process reminding her friends that they should be striving to take the higher road, even if it's difficult.

How can Toph trusting Zuko be difficult or challenging and thus helping her grow as a character if she knows what's up straight off the bat?

And her only other reason for doing so was that they needed a firebending teacher.

Seriously, the show could've done more with the parallels of Zuko and Toph's abusive childhoods if they spent the episode bonding over that (and that's how Toph deduces that Zuko has really turned against his father) rather than Toph just executing her Deus ex Machina Living Lie Detector powers.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 5:53:40 AM

The thing is that Aang, Sokka, and Katara have very concrete reasons not to trust Zuko. It's not just a matter of "Fire Nation bad" for them - Zuko had personally and directly caused them a lot of grief from the moment they met him to the last time they saw him before The Western Air Temple. I feel like Toph's argument needed something equally concrete to counter that. Otherwise, she'd just be minimizing everyone else's experiences just out of some sense of blind idealism to stick up for a guy who she'd never really interacted with before, and that would've felt really forced.

More to the point, though, it's not even like Toph applying her lie detector skill to Zuko even changed the flow of the argument. It went from, "We can't trust this guy!" to, "He did one good, verifiable thing but we still can't trust this guy!" If Toph wasn't able to discern lies via earthbending, what would have changed?

Also, you keep calling Toph's lie detection a Deus ex Machina, but it really isn't? There's a clear internal logic to how the technique works, and by the time it's used against Zuko, her lie detection has been an established part of her arsenal for nearly a full season.

Edited by MileRun on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:10:07 AM

Trust needs a basis, a concept for some reason you seem to not be willing to acknowledge.

I'll just offer up the last point in my last argument as a suggestion.

If Toph and Zuko talked about that in front of the rest of the kids, then perhaps they would've been willing to give Zuko another chance.

Especially when they learn the truth about his scar.

I don't think Zuko explicitly telling the rest of the kids his history was ever brought up in the show on-screen.

If they learned about that in The Western Air Temple, then surely that could've been a better basis for trusting Zuko (on account of coming about more naturally, rather than through superpowers).

I mean, fair enough.

But frankly speaking, I don't think that should've been part of an Earthbender's arsenal in the first place.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 6:14:18 AM

You stated that "disregarding rules and being headstrong can get you and your teammates killed." And then you think Toph should have sought out a villain who has been hunting her friends based off a sudden enlightened burst of empathy and mercy that came out of nowhere.

Toph is someone who for the most part thinks pragmatically, she wouldn't do something this risky unless she has a good reason (namely she can tell Zuko was telling the truth)

Toph meeting up with Zuko didn't need to difficult or challenging for the sake of forced character development. A story is fine just telling what the characters will do given the situation. And again she was already as "in the dark" as her friends since she told them Zuko was telling the truth.

If anything Toph's actions should have affected her as much as her team, who could be upset that she took a risk like this, Maybe they'd reprimand her for going off on her own but acknowledge they should have accepted Zuko in the first place. But there's only 22 minutes to tell a story and Zuko gaining the trust of the Gaang needs to be prioritized first.

>If Toph and Zuko talked about that in front of the rest of the kids

Toph did bring it up, but they quickly dismiss her.

Toph: I'm just saying that, considering his messed-up family and how he was raised, he could have turned out a lot worse.

Katara: You're right, Toph! Let's go find him and give him a medal. The "not as much of a jerk as you could have been" award!

Edited by Moroaica on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:15:42 AM

They definitely wouldn't have. Zuko opened up to Katara in the Book 2 finale, earned her sympathy, and then betrayed her. Katara actually makes it very explicit at the end of the episode that his double-turn in Ba Sing Se prevented her from ever trusting his sob story again.

Edited by MileRun on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:19:04 AM

I would genuinely love to hear what you've got to say on that.

Well, in all fairness, the show's finale had Aang going against everyone telling him to kill Ozai.

But that's because the show was wanting to push the themes of mercy, compassion and taking the higher road.

That's something that could've been built upon even more if Toph had to trust Zuko on her own accord and intuition, no bending allowed.

And the point aside from that is that Toph's character could've stood to mellow out some more and become more kinder and mature towards the end of the series.

Besides, it's less sudden than just detecting that Zuko was telling the truth straight off the bat.

How, mate? Her earthbending literally gave her the answer to the problem on a silver platter.

To counter that, Toph foolishly sneaking up on Zuko and scaring him into burning her feet and thus worsening the team's distrust of Zuko made the conflict feel even more forced.

Then perhaps him telling the team the story behind his scar should've been the climax instead of getting rid of Combustion Man in an illogical way using Sokka just because the plot said so.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 27th 2020 at 6:27:14 AM

>Well, in all fairness, the show's finale had Aang going against everyone telling him to kill Ozai.

Yeah... because he's Aang, the last Air Nomad, a culture that respects pacifism and all lives. That's his character. Not Toph's who is pretty rough and tumble, which is fine.

>Besides, it's less sudden than just detecting that Zuko was telling the truth straight off the bat. >Her Earthbending literally gave her the answer to the problem on a silver platter.

No, because that's an established power of hers. Her learning Zuko was telling the truth showed us what would happen if the Gaang knew the truth. They still don't trust Zuko. It was an important character moment for the team as a while.

>To counter that, Toph foolishly sneaking up on Zuko and scaring him into burning her feet

No it wasn't forced at all. Zuko was on edge and while he should have controlled himself, it's in character for him to react explosively. It shows that even if he's trying to be good, he still has a way to go.

Zuko: Uggh! Why am I so bad at being good?

> Then perhaps him telling the team the story behind his scar should've been the climax

They most likely know what happened through Katara, and he still betraued her. A sob story doesn't undo his crimes, actions speak louder than words, and Zuko risking his life to save them did that.

Again, I have to point out that the lie detection didn't do anything for that debate. You're fundamentally misrepresenting the argument as if the team was asking, "Is Zuko evil? Y/N" and Toph's lie detection automatically gave them the answer.

The actual debate was, "Can we trust Zuko after everything he's done to us?" Toph verified that Zuko did one good thing, but the team still rejected him in the end because they felt one good act didn't compensate for everything else he did to hurt them. There wasn't an easy answer there, least of all one that could be reached with a fact check.

The defeat of Combustion Man didn't even sway the debate. It just gave Zuko another chance to meet Aang and the group face to face. What actually them to accept Zuko in the end was when Zuko told the group what he learned from his banishment, which resonated with Aang. That's a lot stronger than just recounting some Freudian excuse about his scar and expecting the team to take him in based on that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think at that point the gang knows the complete and unwarped version of the story behind Zuko's scar.

Namely, the part where he spoke out against the We Have Reserves attitude of the Fire Nation military and their plan to send their New Meat recruits to fight a hopeless battle just to serve as a distraction. That part is very significant and is too important not to bring up straight.

Book 2 Zuko still believed that his father was right in giving him his scar, not just for speaking out, but for being weak (even though in actuality he was just refusing to fight his own father).

How much of the truth, as well as how straight he told it to Katara, is never shown onscreen, so the key point still stands: the kids don't know that he got scarred just for doing the right thing.

The only thing they know for sure is that Azula and Ozai are complete psychopaths.

If Toph trusted him so much, then maybe she shouldn't have snuck up on him.

Zuko's got a bounty on his head and is an enemy to both sides of the war. Of course he'd react in self-defense when he's jumped by someone when he's all by himself in the middle of the night.

The point is that showing trust, goodwill, mercy and compassion to Zuko on her own, without her bending, would've been a great way to show how far Toph has come, thanks to learning from her friends, rather than just her solving the situation with her bending.

And doing that would've been more meaningful because the show wants to push the theme of taking the higher road.

It's why Zuko refused to scar or kill Zhao when he had the chance. It's one of the reasons why Katara refused to kill Yon Rha. It's the reason why Aang refused to kill Ozai.

Then perhaps the episode should've had Zuko directly dealing with Combustion Man rather than Sokka.

They wouldn't have known that if Toph couldn't sense the truth behind Zuko's words in the first place.

Yes, it is an interesting debate, but its weakness lies in the fact that the gang had an easy way to come to that conclusion and question in the first place.

Again, would Toph be acting that insightful and would she be willing to extend her hand out in friendship if she didn't know if Zuko was being honest or not?

I actually agree with that bit specifically, so again I push for the point that the Combustion Man climax should've been scrapped and there should've been more build-up and discussion time between the Gang and Zuko before getting to that part.

Heck, instead of Zuko accidentally burning Toph, Combustion Man could've ambushed the two and they would have had to defeat him then and there. Bringing the remains of his metal hand to the rest of the team afterwards, they could've discussed Zuko's history, and also his reasons for why he turned and the lessons that he learned over the past few years, all in one long and extended discussion.

Then for sure, they would know that they can trust him this time.

Edited by BrightLight on Jun 28th 2020 at 7:13:54 AM