Follow TV Tropes

Following

History YMMV / TheBelgariad

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:


* TastesLikeDiabetes: The denouement of ''The Malloreon'', where everyone pairs off with their LoveInterest and has BabiesEverAfter. [[LampshadeHanging Lampshaded]] by Silk, and, as on previous occasions, implied to be the Prophecy's way of saying thank you.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:


* RelationshipWritingFumble: Polgara and Beldaran are twin sisters, but in ''Polgara the Sorceress'', Pol's descriptions of her love for Beldaran imply something much more {{Twincest}}uous.

to:

* RelationshipWritingFumble: PlatonicWritingRomanticReading: Polgara and Beldaran are twin sisters, but in ''Polgara the Sorceress'', Pol's descriptions of her love for Beldaran imply something much more {{Twincest}}uous.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* GatewaySeries: Many fantasy readers have stated that reading ''The Belgariad'' as a child or teen was what got them into the genre. The drug metaphor is doubly apt as its own author described it as "the literary equivalent of peddling dope."
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Polgara's rejoicing at Chamdar's death, that Garion finds so horrifying, becomes ''incredibly'' understandable when when her prequel explains how Chamdar killed Garion's parents and paternal grandparents (we knew he'd burned the former alive, but we find out he also staged a rock fall that killed Garion's grand father made his grandmother literally mad with grief, until she was so confused and depressed she went looking for her dead husband in the middle of winter, fell off a cliff, and died. And that last was done specifically to get Polgara out of the way so he could murder the Godslayer's parents. Belgarath planned to see that Chamdar took two weeks to die if he caught him.)
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
already under Jerkass Woobie


* TheWoobie: Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's {{Jerkass}} façade (this is literally her purpose, according to Belgarath, as part of Garion's education). The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].

to:

* TheWoobie: Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's {{Jerkass}} façade (this is literally her purpose, according to Belgarath, as part of Garion's education). The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* KarmicOverkill: While Zedar was no hero, [[spoiler:[[AndIMustScream being trapped in stone]] [[AFateWorseThanDeath for the rest of time]]]] is an extreme punishment no matter who you are, even before taking [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation more charitable interpretations of his character]] into account.

Changed: 1584

Removed: 1340

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
This is also arguing with itself...also, as a powerful sorcerer, Zedar surely could have found a way to stop Durnik without killing him.


* UnintentionallySympathetic: Zedar. He's supposed to be a cruel, power-hungry sorcerer who betrayed his god and his fellow sorcerers to commit centuries of evil acts and whose eventual imprisonment within a rock for all eternity is richly deserved. However, this intended interpretation of him falls apart when you consider 1) His FaceHeelTurn was not his own choice, but forced on him by Torak, 2) all the evil things he did were while under Torak's mind control and not of his own volition, and 3) His killing of Durnik was in self-defense after the latter, enraged, assaulted him with intent to kill, and was the only thing that prevented Polgara from agreeing to marry Torak and give him the edge he needed to defeat Garion and conquer the world. In light of these points, Zedar's fate becomes much less LaserGuidedKarma and much more a combination of ProtagonistCenteredMorality and MoralDissonance. (And really, what was Belgarath expecting Zedar to do? Just stand there and let Durnik kill him?)
** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation On the other hand]], even if Torak controlled him, Zedar used the fact [[NeverMyFault to make himself seem blameless for all that he did]], which includes: killing a King of Riva and sparking the war that nearly annihilated the country of Nyissa, since he manipulated the Queen into engineering the assassination, and potentially engineering the suicide of Belmakor, who was essentially a brother to Belgarath. Thousands of years of atrocities would have allowed Belgarath's anger at Zedar to come to a boil: Zedar killing Durnik ([[spoiler: even if Durnik was intended to die as the "sacrifice" in that particular EVENT]], whom he was close to, would have been the last straw for Belgarath. Additionally, Zedar did choose to go to Torak in the first place of his own free will, and must have known what could potentially happen.
** It all ultimately comes down how aware of/in control of his actions you think Zedar was under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable he should be held for them. If he had little to no free will of his own, then he's sympathetic, but if he actually had some degree of choice in the bad things he did, then he's unsympathetic. And let's not even get into a debate of how accountable a person should be held for the actions he or she did while under mind control...

to:

* UnintentionallySympathetic: Zedar. Zedar, to some. He's supposed to be a cruel, power-hungry portrayed as an evil sorcerer who betrayed his god master and his fellow sorcerers brothers to commit centuries of evil acts serve [[GodOfEvil Torak]], and whose eventual imprisonment within a rock for all eternity is richly deserved. However, this intended interpretation of him falls apart when you consider 1) His FaceHeelTurn was not his own choice, but forced on him by Torak, 2) all has committed countless horrors since. When he finally appears, he defends himself with the evil things he did claim that those atrocities were while under because Torak's mind control will has completely subsumed his own, and not of his own volition, and 3) His killing of Durnik was in self-defense after [[spoiler:his ultimate fate is [[AndIMustScream completely horrifying]].]] At the latter, enraged, assaulted him with intent to kill, and was the only thing that prevented Polgara from agreeing to marry same time, he ''did'' first approach Torak and give him the edge he needed to defeat Garion and conquer the world. In light of these points, Zedar's fate becomes much less LaserGuidedKarma and much more a combination of ProtagonistCenteredMorality and MoralDissonance. (And really, what was Belgarath expecting Zedar to do? Just stand there and let Durnik kill him?)
** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation On the other hand]], even if Torak controlled him, Zedar used the fact [[NeverMyFault to make himself seem blameless for all that he did]], which includes: killing a King of Riva and sparking the war that nearly annihilated the country of Nyissa, since he manipulated the Queen into engineering the assassination, and potentially engineering the suicide of Belmakor, who was essentially a brother to Belgarath. Thousands of years of atrocities would have allowed Belgarath's anger at Zedar to come to a boil: Zedar killing Durnik ([[spoiler: even if Durnik was intended to die as the "sacrifice" in that particular EVENT]], whom he was close to, would have been the last straw for Belgarath. Additionally, Zedar did choose to go to Torak in the first place
of his own free will, and must have known what could potentially happen.
** It all ultimately comes down how aware of/in
happen, and his claims of not being in control of his actions you think Zedar was under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable he should be held for them. If are in-universe shot down by Polgara as ''excuses''. Readers who believe he had little to no free will of his own, then he's sympathetic, but if own will likely consider him this trope, while those who believe he actually had some degree of choice in the bad things he did, then he's unsympathetic.did will likely only sympathize [[spoiler:with his end]]. And let's not even get into a debate of how accountable a person should be held for the actions he or she did while under mind control...



* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotForKids: The series is sometimes put in the children's section of bookstores, and it raises some questions: "So what exactly makes the Belgariad suitable for children? The graphic descriptions of human sacrifices to Torak? The slave in Nyissa who dies from being eaten by leeches? Zedar's fate? The torture chamber in the second book? Just about all of Rak Cthol?"

to:

* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotForKids: The series is sometimes put in the children's section of bookstores, and it raises some questions: "So what exactly makes the Belgariad suitable for children? The graphic descriptions of human sacrifices to Torak? The slave in Nyissa who dies from being eaten by leeches? Zedar's fate? [[spoiler:Zedar's fate]]? The torture chamber in the second book? Just about all of Rak Cthol?"
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
that was the aversion i missed, oops


* TheScrappy: Ce'Nedra just ''barely'' misses becoming this in the first series, and that only because of her SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome. Although, to some fans the CMOA wasn't enough to save her. In the second series, CharacterDevelopment helps her out.

Added: 135

Changed: 5901

Removed: 5386

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Misuse—Protagonist Centered Morality is not that trope. Pedophilic undertones are something that very much belong in No Yay. The Informed Wrongness entry argues with itself and is ultimately incorrect—the issue wasn't Garion not wanting to use sorcery again, it was him not wanting to learn how to control it, which made him a massive danger for everyone. Polgara's actions weren't *right*, but that doesn't make Garion less wrong. Zedar probably qualifies as a Jerkass Woobie since the Alternative Character Interpreation does apply. Aversions aren't listed.


* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, which blurs with DeliberateValuesDissonance, and the past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. ** A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use. Though it has to be said, he notes that he never really liked using it, solely doing so on political grounds)]]. Yeah. Though it should be said that Silk suggests early on that he's not ''totally'' changed and warns Garion to be careful, and he lightly notes in a letter that he hasn't changed ''that'' much. Additionally, he had a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing, and it's implied at the end that [[spoiler: spreading the gospel of Eriond]], something that will take him the rest of his life, is fate's way of getting him to make up for it.
** On the "good guy's" side - Garion was raised to follow literally every order given to him by his elders in the service of an obscure prophecy, and to kill on command (see InformedWrongness below) without questioning, as a "Pawn of the Prophecy", if you will. The moment Garion realizes he was lied to and manipulated his entire life, and is now expected to follow orders unquestioningly, he embarks on the tiniest bit of attempted rebellion - which his superiors not only depict as childish petulance, but also use bullying and psychological manipulation to enforce their authority without ever coming out and stating what Garion did (practically nothing) and what is was in response to (which would sound fairly unpleasant if ever stated out loud). Even more horrifying when reading the prequels - Polgara has occasionally taken uncooperative heirs to the Rivan line who have already sired children into seclusion, waiting decades for them to die in isolation so that she could carry on the work with more pliant offspring.
*** Though it is also worth noting that Garion's raw magical power (which attracts unwanted attention) and the dangers of the Will and the Word (it's implied that the majority of would-be sorcerers, including several of Senji's students, accidentally destroyed themselves), make his refusal to learn dangerous, even if it was for understandable reasons.
** Lampshaded when Belgarath tells Garion that he dislikes talking about good and evil, and prefers to just say 'us and them'. In his prequel, he quite candidly admits that he murdered a ''lot'' of people to keep the Prophecy going.
** '''Zedar.''' How in control of/aware of his actions was he while under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable should he be held for them? Was he a tragic character whose only mistake was thinking he could take on Torak on his own, as Zedar himself claims, or was he a DirtyCoward who used the mind control as an excuse to avoid facing up to all the terrible things he did? If it's the latter, then his final, AndIMustScream fate is LaserGuidedKarma, but if it's the former, then's both DisproportionateRetribution and [[ColdBloodedTorture cruel and unusual punishment]] on Belgarath's part. It certainly doesn't help analysis of his character that Belgarath, Polgara, and Beldin are all looking at him through an ''extremely'' personal and emotional point of view, and are therefore no way willing to look at him from any sort of charitable perspective, much less an ''objective'' one.
*** The story is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk (no stranger to ruthlessness himself) and freaking ''Zakath'' - who's about two steps away from being a CompleteMonster for a chunk of the series - being absolutely horrified by his fate. Even Belgarath himself is sometimes a bit uneasy about it (though he notes that if some suspicions about what Zedar did to [[DrivenToSuicide Belmakor and Belsambar]] are ever proven, he's going to put him somewhere much ''less'' comfortable).

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, which blurs with DeliberateValuesDissonance, and the past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. ** A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use. Though it has to be said, he notes that he never really liked using it, solely doing so on political grounds)]]. Yeah. Though it should be said that Silk suggests early on that he's not ''totally'' changed and warns Garion to be careful, and he lightly notes in a letter that he hasn't changed ''that'' much. Additionally, he had a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing, and it's implied at the end that [[spoiler: spreading the gospel of Eriond]], something that will take him the rest of his life, is fate's way of getting him to make up for it.
** On the "good guy's" side - Garion was raised to follow literally every order given to him by his elders in the service of an obscure prophecy, and to kill on command (see InformedWrongness below) without questioning, as a "Pawn of the Prophecy", if you will. The moment Garion realizes he was lied to and manipulated his entire life, and is now expected to follow orders unquestioningly, he embarks on the tiniest bit of attempted rebellion - which his superiors not only depict as childish petulance, but also use bullying and psychological manipulation to enforce their authority without ever coming out and stating what Garion did (practically nothing) and what is was in response to (which would sound fairly unpleasant if ever stated out loud). Even more horrifying when reading the prequels - Polgara has occasionally taken uncooperative heirs to the Rivan line who have already sired children into seclusion, waiting decades for them to die in isolation so that she could carry on the work with more pliant offspring.
*** Though it is also worth noting that Garion's raw magical power (which attracts unwanted attention) and the dangers of the Will and the Word (it's implied that the majority of would-be sorcerers, including several of Senji's students, accidentally destroyed themselves), make his refusal to learn dangerous, even if it was for understandable reasons.
** Lampshaded when Belgarath tells Garion that he dislikes talking about good and evil, and prefers to just say 'us and them'. In his prequel, he quite candidly admits that he murdered a ''lot'' of people to keep the Prophecy going.
**
'''Zedar.''' How in control of/aware of his actions was he while under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable should he be held for them? Was he a tragic character whose only mistake was thinking he could take on Torak on his own, as Zedar himself claims, or was he a DirtyCoward who used the mind control as an excuse to avoid facing up to all the terrible things he did? If it's the latter, then his [[spoiler:his final, AndIMustScream fate is LaserGuidedKarma, LaserGuidedKarma]], but if it's the former, then's then [[spoiler:it's both DisproportionateRetribution and [[ColdBloodedTorture cruel and unusual punishment]] on Belgarath's part. part]]. It certainly doesn't help analysis of his character that Belgarath, Polgara, and Beldin are all looking at him through an ''extremely'' personal and emotional point of view, and are therefore no way willing to look at him from any sort of charitable perspective, much less an ''objective'' one.
*** The story is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk (no stranger to ruthlessness himself) and freaking ''Zakath'' - who's about two steps away from being a CompleteMonster for a chunk of the series - being absolutely horrified by his fate. Even Belgarath himself is sometimes a bit uneasy about it (though he notes that if some suspicions about what Zedar did to [[DrivenToSuicide Belmakor and Belsambar]] are ever proven, he's going to put him somewhere much ''less'' comfortable).
one.



* FoeYay: The paedophilic undertones to Garion and Chamdar's relationship may or may not have been intentional, but they were effective.



* InformedWrongness: Garion and Polgara's disagreement in ''Queen of Sorcery''. After burning a man alive using sorcery and being traumatised by it, Garion is treated by everyone – including the Prophecy – as childish for not wanting to use sorcery again and insisting that Polgara should use his real name. After the burning-alive incident, Polgara, the only parent Garion's ever had, spitefully insists on calling him Belgarion if this was [[IKnowYourTrueName somehow significant]] – which it clearly isn't, as she proceeds to call him Garion through the rest of the series. She invades Garion's mind to taunt him and give him smug, condescending advice and even goes as far as manipulating his thoughts to make him write "Belgarion" as his name when Ce'Nedra is teaching him to write. The cherry on top is her (successful) attempt to emotionally manipulate him by claiming that her caring for Garion's family line has been some sort of a personal favor to him, that she's lived in squalor for hundreds of years for him and that her sister died for him – all of it false.
** On the other hand, Polgara is notably unhappy at his moral crisis (that he's suffering) while the Prophecy is less sympathetic. And both Polgara and the Prophecy have a point, [[JerkassHasAPoint even if it isn't a very nice one or pleasantly expressed.]] It is made very clear that whether he likes it or not, Garion's power is finding its way out in all sorts of ways, and with the sheer scale of it, he ''really'' needs to get it under control, or there'll be horrible consequences, up to and including him accidentally destroying himself. Additionally, getting him to accept the name Belgarion is part of getting him to accept his powers and the fact that (as he later finds out) he's the heir to the Rivan Throne, rather than just plain old Garion the farmboy. And from a point of view, what she says is correct: Beldaran ''did'' die (rather than going on to become a sorceress like Polgara, though it's deliberately left ambiguous whether she had the potential or not) founding the line of Garion's ancestors, Polgara ''has'' spent the last 1300 years watching over his family, often in rather impoverished circumstances, to ensure his birth, meaning that it's not surprising that she reacts like that when he tells her that she's a cold, unfeeling monster (cold, yes, but Polgara's the opposite of unfeeling - sometimes too much) and that the two of them are done. So she did technically do all of that for him, if originally for the abstract idea of Garion rather than Garion himself, and Beldaran did ''technically'' die for him (the latter isn't a rational claim, as such, but it's noted several times that Polgara has ''many'' unresolved issues over the loss of her sister).
*** Additionally, given that Asharak burned alive two people she cared deeply for, having also murdered Garion's grandfather and cruelly twisted the mind of Garion's grandmother so she didn't remember he was dead, and kept going to look for him, eventually walking her off a cliff just to distract Polgara while he murdered Garion's parents. And that's only the start of the things he's done. All in all, she probably feels like what happened to him was quite the KarmicDeath.
* JerkassWoobie: Ce'Nedra in ''The Malloreon''. While she's still as bossy and demanding as in ''The Belgariad'', if [[JerkWithAHeartOfGold having mellowed somewhat]], it's hard not to feel at least a little pity towards her when she [[spoiler:loses her father]] during the first book, goes through a lot of angst about fearing that she's not able to conceive, or after [[spoiler:her son is kidnapped]] by Zandramas, especially since Zandramas seems to love [[YankTheDogsChain yanking her chain]].

to:

* InformedWrongness: Garion and Polgara's disagreement in ''Queen of Sorcery''. After burning a man alive using sorcery and being traumatised by it, Garion is treated by everyone – including the Prophecy – as childish for not wanting to use sorcery again and insisting that Polgara should use his real name. After the burning-alive incident, Polgara, the only parent Garion's ever had, spitefully insists on calling him Belgarion if this was [[IKnowYourTrueName somehow significant]] – which it clearly isn't, as she proceeds to call him Garion through the rest of the series. She invades Garion's mind to taunt him and give him smug, condescending advice and even goes as far as manipulating his thoughts to make him write "Belgarion" as his name when Ce'Nedra is teaching him to write. The cherry on top is her (successful) attempt to emotionally manipulate him by claiming that her caring for Garion's family line has been some sort of a personal favor to him, that she's lived in squalor for hundreds of years for him and that her sister died for him – all of it false.
JerkassWoobie:
** On the other hand, Polgara is notably unhappy at his moral crisis (that he's suffering) while the Prophecy is less sympathetic. And both Polgara and the Prophecy have a point, [[JerkassHasAPoint even if it isn't a very nice one or pleasantly expressed.]] It is made very clear that whether he likes it or not, Garion's power is finding its way out in all sorts of ways, and with the sheer scale of it, he ''really'' needs to get it under control, or there'll be horrible consequences, up to and including him accidentally destroying himself. Additionally, getting him to accept the name Belgarion is part of getting him to accept his powers and the fact that (as he later finds out) he's the heir to the Rivan Throne, rather than just plain old Garion the farmboy. And from a point of view, what she says is correct: Beldaran ''did'' die (rather than going on to become a sorceress like Polgara, though it's deliberately left ambiguous whether she had the potential or not) founding the line of Garion's ancestors, Polgara ''has'' spent the last 1300 years watching over his family, often in rather impoverished circumstances, to ensure his birth, meaning that it's not surprising that she reacts like that when he tells her that she's a cold, unfeeling monster (cold, yes, but Polgara's the opposite of unfeeling - sometimes too much) and that the two of them are done. So she did technically do all of that for him, if originally for the abstract idea of Garion rather than Garion himself, and Beldaran did ''technically'' die for him (the latter isn't a rational claim, as such, but it's noted several times that Polgara has ''many'' unresolved issues over the loss of her sister).
*** Additionally, given that Asharak burned alive two people she cared deeply for, having also murdered Garion's grandfather and cruelly twisted the mind of Garion's grandmother so she didn't remember he was dead, and kept going to look for him, eventually walking her off a cliff just to distract Polgara while he murdered Garion's parents. And that's only the start of the things he's done. All in all, she probably feels like what happened to him was quite the KarmicDeath.
* JerkassWoobie:
Ce'Nedra in ''The Malloreon''. While she's still as bossy and demanding as in ''The Belgariad'', if [[JerkWithAHeartOfGold having mellowed somewhat]], it's hard not to feel at least a little pity towards her when she [[spoiler:loses her father]] during the first book, goes through a lot of angst about fearing that she's not able to conceive, or after [[spoiler:her son is kidnapped]] by Zandramas, especially since Zandramas seems to love [[YankTheDogsChain yanking her chain]].chain]].
** Zedar, and whether you consider him more 'jerkass' or more 'woobie' likely depends [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation on how in control of himself you believe he is]]. The prequels show he wasn't a stranger to KickTheDog even before serving Torak, but [[spoiler:his utterly horrible fate of [[AndIMustScream being imprisoned alive in stone forever]]]] will likely draw ''some'' sympathy from readers.



* NoYay: The paedophilic undertones to Garion and Chamdar's relationship may or may not have been intentional, but they were effective.



* TheWoobie
** Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's {{Jerkass}} façade (this is literally her purpose, according to Belgarath, as part of Garion's education). The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].
** Zedar -- period. Manipulated by both prophecies to serve their ends, his reward for finding Errand/Eriond--not to mention allowing the Light side to win the EVENT at the end of ''The Belgariad'', (if he hadn't (in self defense) killed Durnik, Polgara would've submitted to Torak and Garion would've lost the fight)--is eternal entombment in solid rock... and Durnik got better. The prequels give him lots of KickTheDog moments to try and justify this but it still comes off as harsh, especially considering Belgarath, who entombs him, has done some seriously questionable things himself. It's also implied that he's little more than Torak's puppet - his will so totally overwhelmed by the insane evil god's that he wasn't in control of his own actions. None of that matters, Belgarath happily condemns him to an AndIMustScream fate without much in the way of qualm (he considers letting Zedar out a couple of times, but Beldin bluntly states that if he did, he'd put Zedar right back a moment later).
*** YMMV depending on how much control he has of himself.

to:

* TheWoobie
**
TheWoobie: Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's {{Jerkass}} façade (this is literally her purpose, according to Belgarath, as part of Garion's education). The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].
** Zedar -- period. Manipulated by both prophecies to serve their ends, his reward for finding Errand/Eriond--not to mention allowing the Light side to win the EVENT at the end of ''The Belgariad'', (if he hadn't (in self defense) killed Durnik, Polgara would've submitted to Torak and Garion would've lost the fight)--is eternal entombment in solid rock... and Durnik got better. The prequels give him lots of KickTheDog moments to try and justify this but it still comes off as harsh, especially considering Belgarath, who entombs him, has done some seriously questionable things himself. It's also implied that he's little more than Torak's puppet - his will so totally overwhelmed by the insane evil god's that he wasn't in control of his own actions. None of that matters, Belgarath happily condemns him to an AndIMustScream fate without much in the way of qualm (he considers letting Zedar out a couple of times, but Beldin bluntly states that if he did, he'd put Zedar right back a moment later).
*** YMMV depending on how much control he has of himself.
rock]].

Added: 876

Changed: 628

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotDidactic: An in-universe example: Belgarath, in the guise of a wandering storyteller, tells a ghost story about a group of greedy miners sneaking into Maragor and eaten by the ghosts therein. Everyone looks horrified until Faldor laughs and handwaves the story as a sermon against greed and fear. This ends up becoming HarsherInHindsight when the protagonists actually travel to Maragor, which really is filled with the ghosts of the Marags, slaughtered by the Tolnedrans ages ago for the massive gold deposits there, though the excuse was the [[ImAHumanitarian ritualized cannibalism they performed thanks to misreading a sacred text.]]

to:

* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotDidactic: WhatDoYouMeanItsNotDidactic:
**
An in-universe example: Belgarath, in the guise of a wandering storyteller, tells a ghost story about a group of greedy miners sneaking into Maragor and eaten by the ghosts therein. Everyone looks horrified until Faldor laughs and handwaves the story as a sermon against greed and fear. This ends up becoming HarsherInHindsight when the protagonists actually travel to Maragor, which really is filled with the ghosts of the Marags, slaughtered by the Tolnedrans ages ago for the massive gold deposits there, though the excuse was the [[ImAHumanitarian ritualized cannibalism they performed thanks to misreading a sacred text.]]]]
** Given that the series was written in TheEighties, much of the themes such as two equal but conflicting prophecies, prophecies using proxies instead of direct conflict, and a rift between West and East draw parallels to the UsefulNotes/ColdWar.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* HarsherInHindsight: After the revelations that the authors were convicted child abusers, some of the older characters treatment of the teenage characters makes for uncomfortable reading in light of this.

to:

* HarsherInHindsight: After the revelations that the authors were convicted child abusers, some of the older characters treatment of the teenage characters makes for uncomfortable reading in light of this.this - Polgara in particular can come off as downright emotionally abusive to Garion in some passages.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* HarsherInHindsight: After the revelations that the authors were convicted child abusers, some of the older characters treatment of the teenage characters makes for uncomfortable reading in light of this.

Changed: 25

Removed: 25

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** ''Magician's Gambit'': [[EvilSorcerer Ctuchik]] is HighPriest of the [[ReligionOfEvil Grolims]], and [[TheDragon chief disciple]] of [[GodOfEvil Torak]], ruling Cthol Murgos in Torak's stead after the god was left comatose. Completely uninterested in awakening Torak, Ctuchik nevertheless keeps Grolim rituals of HumanSacrifice going for five hundred years, sacrificing untold thousands of slaves to a god he does not even worship in order to cement his control over the priesthood. Pursuing his [[DragonWithAnAgenda own agenda]], Ctuchik aims to TakeOverTheWorld in order to satiate his lust for power, and maintains a private [[TortureTechnician torture chamber]] for his own
[[{{Sadist}} amusement]].

to:

** ''Magician's Gambit'': [[EvilSorcerer Ctuchik]] is HighPriest of the [[ReligionOfEvil Grolims]], and [[TheDragon chief disciple]] of [[GodOfEvil Torak]], ruling Cthol Murgos in Torak's stead after the god was left comatose. Completely uninterested in awakening Torak, Ctuchik nevertheless keeps Grolim rituals of HumanSacrifice going for five hundred years, sacrificing untold thousands of slaves to a god he does not even worship in order to cement his control over the priesthood. Pursuing his [[DragonWithAnAgenda own agenda]], Ctuchik aims to TakeOverTheWorld in order to satiate his lust for power, and maintains a private [[TortureTechnician torture chamber]] for his own
own [[{{Sadist}} amusement]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


[{{Sadist}} amusement]].

to:

[{{Sadist}} [[{{Sadist}} amusement]].

Added: 484

Changed: 2157

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, which blurs with DeliberateValuesDissonance, and the past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use. Though it has to be said, he notes that he never really liked using it, solely doing so on political grounds)]] Yeah. Though it should be said that he has a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing, and it's implied at the end that [[spoiler: spreading the gospel of Eriond]], something that will take him the rest of his life, is fate's way of getting him to make up for it.
** On the "good guy's" side - Garion was raised to follow literally every order given to him by his elders in the service of an obscure prophecy, and to kill on command (see InformedWrongness below) without questioning, as a "Pawn of the Prophecy", if you will. The moment Garion realizes he was lied to and manipulated his entire life, and is now expected to follow orders unquestioningly, he embarks on the tiniest bit of attempted rebellion - which his superiors not only depict as childish petulance, but also use bullying and psychological manipulation to enforce their authority without ever coming out and stating what Garion did (practically nothing) and what is was in response to (which would sound fairly unpleasant if ever stated out loud). Even more horrifying when reading the prequels - Polgara has occasionally taken uncooperative heirs to the Rivan line who have already sired chilren into seclusion, waiting decades for them to die in isolation so that she could carry on the work with more pliant offspring.
** Lampshaded when Belgarath tells Garion that he dislikes talking about good and evil, and prefers to just say 'us and them'.

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, which blurs with DeliberateValuesDissonance, and the past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. ** A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use. Though it has to be said, he notes that he never really liked using it, solely doing so on political grounds)]] grounds)]]. Yeah. Though it should be said that Silk suggests early on that he's not ''totally'' changed and warns Garion to be careful, and he has lightly notes in a letter that he hasn't changed ''that'' much. Additionally, he had a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing, and it's implied at the end that [[spoiler: spreading the gospel of Eriond]], something that will take him the rest of his life, is fate's way of getting him to make up for it.
** On the "good guy's" side - Garion was raised to follow literally every order given to him by his elders in the service of an obscure prophecy, and to kill on command (see InformedWrongness below) without questioning, as a "Pawn of the Prophecy", if you will. The moment Garion realizes he was lied to and manipulated his entire life, and is now expected to follow orders unquestioningly, he embarks on the tiniest bit of attempted rebellion - which his superiors not only depict as childish petulance, but also use bullying and psychological manipulation to enforce their authority without ever coming out and stating what Garion did (practically nothing) and what is was in response to (which would sound fairly unpleasant if ever stated out loud). Even more horrifying when reading the prequels - Polgara has occasionally taken uncooperative heirs to the Rivan line who have already sired chilren children into seclusion, waiting decades for them to die in isolation so that she could carry on the work with more pliant offspring.
offspring.
*** Though it is also worth noting that Garion's raw magical power (which attracts unwanted attention) and the dangers of the Will and the Word (it's implied that the majority of would-be sorcerers, including several of Senji's students, accidentally destroyed themselves), make his refusal to learn dangerous, even if it was for understandable reasons.
** Lampshaded when Belgarath tells Garion that he dislikes talking about good and evil, and prefers to just say 'us and them'. In his prequel, he quite candidly admits that he murdered a ''lot'' of people to keep the Prophecy going.



*** The story is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk (no stranger to ruthlessness himself) and freaking ''Zakath'' - who's about two steps away from being a CompleteMonster for a chunk of the series - being absolutely horrified by his fate.

to:

*** The story is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk (no stranger to ruthlessness himself) and freaking ''Zakath'' - who's about two steps away from being a CompleteMonster for a chunk of the series - being absolutely horrified by his fate. Even Belgarath himself is sometimes a bit uneasy about it (though he notes that if some suspicions about what Zedar did to [[DrivenToSuicide Belmakor and Belsambar]] are ever proven, he's going to put him somewhere much ''less'' comfortable).



** After being a sinister looming presence during the first book and most of the second one, and in spite of his importance in the backstory as he's the one who [[spoiler:killed Garion's parents]], [[spoiler:Asharak/Chamdar]] is dispatched rather easily when he tries to ambush the heroes [[spoiler:who are trying to leave Tolnedra]]. He threatens Garion's life, [[spoiler:Garion's powers are suddenly awakened and he burns him alive, Polgara suddenly reveals that he is the one who killed Garion's parents, which give him the will to continue the spell until Chamdar dies without being able to counter-attack]]. This is not entirely surprising, considering that [[spoiler: Asharak/Chamdar]] is a SmallNameBigEgo character, whose main threat to Garion is because until that point, Garion has no way to defend himself.

to:

** After being a sinister looming presence during the first book and most of the second one, and in spite of his importance in the backstory as he's the one who [[spoiler:killed Garion's parents]], [[spoiler:Asharak/Chamdar]] is dispatched rather easily when he tries to ambush the heroes [[spoiler:who are trying to leave Tolnedra]]. He threatens Garion's life, [[spoiler:Garion's powers are suddenly awakened and he burns him alive, Polgara suddenly reveals that he is the one who killed Garion's parents, which give him the will to continue the spell until Chamdar dies without being able to counter-attack]]. This is not entirely surprising, considering that [[spoiler: Asharak/Chamdar]] is a SmallNameBigEgo character, whose main threat to Garion is because until that point, Garion has no way to defend himself.himself and [[spoiler: Asharak/Chamdar]] had the good sense to stay out of reach of either Polgara or Belgarath (the only time he got near either was when, respectively, he had hostages and when he had baby Garion to throw at the furious Belgarath).



** ''Magician's Gambit'': [[EvilSorcerer Ctuchik]] is HighPriest of the [[ReligionOfEvil Grolims]], and [[TheDragon chief disciple]] of [[GodOfEvil Torak]], ruling Cthol Murgos in Torak's stead after the god was left comatose. Completely uninterested in awakening Torak, Ctuchik nevertheless keeps Grolim rituals of HumanSacrifice going for five hundred years, sacrificing untold thousands of slaves to a god he does not even worship in order to cement his control over the priesthood. Pursuing his [[DragonWithAnAgenda own agenda]], Ctuchik aims to TakeOverTheWorld in order to satiate his lust for power, and maintains a private [[TortureTechnician torture chamber]] for his own [[{{Sadist}} amusement]].

to:

** ''Magician's Gambit'': [[EvilSorcerer Ctuchik]] is HighPriest of the [[ReligionOfEvil Grolims]], and [[TheDragon chief disciple]] of [[GodOfEvil Torak]], ruling Cthol Murgos in Torak's stead after the god was left comatose. Completely uninterested in awakening Torak, Ctuchik nevertheless keeps Grolim rituals of HumanSacrifice going for five hundred years, sacrificing untold thousands of slaves to a god he does not even worship in order to cement his control over the priesthood. Pursuing his [[DragonWithAnAgenda own agenda]], Ctuchik aims to TakeOverTheWorld in order to satiate his lust for power, and maintains a private [[TortureTechnician torture chamber]] for his own [[{{Sadist}} own
[{{Sadist}}
amusement]].



* EvilIsSexy: Described by all characters as a very beautiful woman, and proves to be a very sensuous character, Salmissra attempts to seduce Garion to her side, and use him for her own most likely nefarious purposes. Very nearly succeeds.

to:

* EvilIsSexy: EvilIsSexy:
**
Described by all characters as a very beautiful woman, and proves to be a very sensuous character, Salmissra attempts to seduce Garion to her side, and use him for her own most likely nefarious purposes. Very nearly succeeds.



** On the other hand, Polgara is notably unhappy at his moral crisis (that he's suffering) while the Prophecy is less sympathetic. And both Polgara and the Prophecy have a point, [[JerkassHasAPoint even if it isn't a very nice one or pleasantly expressed.]] It is made very clear that whether he likes it or not, Garion's power is finding its way out in all sorts of ways, and with the sheer scale of it, he ''really'' needs to get it under control. Additionally, getting him to accept the name Belgarion is part of getting him to accept his powers and the fact that (as he later finds out) he's the heir to the Rivan Throne, rather than just plain old Garion the farmboy. And from a point of view, what she says is correct: Beldaran ''did'' die (rather than going on to become a sorceress like Polgara, though it's deliberately left ambiguous whether she had the potential or not) founding the line of Garion's ancestors, Polgara ''has'' spent the last 1300 years watching over his family, often in rather impoverished circumstances, to ensure his birth, meaning that it's not surprising that she reacts like that when he tells her that she's a cold, unfeeling monster (cold, yes, but Polgara's the opposite of unfeeling - sometimes too much) and that the two of them are done. So she did technically do all of that for him, if originally for the abstract idea of Garion rather than Garion himself, and Beldaran did ''technically'' die for him (the latter isn't a rational claim, as such, but it's noted that Polgara has many unresolved issues over the loss of her sister).
*** Additionally, given that Asharak burned alive two people she cared deeply for, she probably feels like what happened to him was quite the KarmicDeath.

to:

** On the other hand, Polgara is notably unhappy at his moral crisis (that he's suffering) while the Prophecy is less sympathetic. And both Polgara and the Prophecy have a point, [[JerkassHasAPoint even if it isn't a very nice one or pleasantly expressed.]] It is made very clear that whether he likes it or not, Garion's power is finding its way out in all sorts of ways, and with the sheer scale of it, he ''really'' needs to get it under control.control, or there'll be horrible consequences, up to and including him accidentally destroying himself. Additionally, getting him to accept the name Belgarion is part of getting him to accept his powers and the fact that (as he later finds out) he's the heir to the Rivan Throne, rather than just plain old Garion the farmboy. And from a point of view, what she says is correct: Beldaran ''did'' die (rather than going on to become a sorceress like Polgara, though it's deliberately left ambiguous whether she had the potential or not) founding the line of Garion's ancestors, Polgara ''has'' spent the last 1300 years watching over his family, often in rather impoverished circumstances, to ensure his birth, meaning that it's not surprising that she reacts like that when he tells her that she's a cold, unfeeling monster (cold, yes, but Polgara's the opposite of unfeeling - sometimes too much) and that the two of them are done. So she did technically do all of that for him, if originally for the abstract idea of Garion rather than Garion himself, and Beldaran did ''technically'' die for him (the latter isn't a rational claim, as such, but it's noted several times that Polgara has many ''many'' unresolved issues over the loss of her sister).
*** Additionally, given that Asharak burned alive two people she cared deeply for, having also murdered Garion's grandfather and cruelly twisted the mind of Garion's grandmother so she didn't remember he was dead, and kept going to look for him, eventually walking her off a cliff just to distract Polgara while he murdered Garion's parents. And that's only the start of the things he's done. All in all, she probably feels like what happened to him was quite the KarmicDeath.



* MagnificentBastard: Sadi is the [[EvilChancellor Chief Eunuch at Salmissra’s court]], and the worst person the Prophecy ever drafts into assisting Garion and his companions. A MasterPoisoner and drug kingpin who had previously [[PlayingBothSides played both sides of the war]] in ''Literature/TheBelgariad'', Sadi is recruited during ''The Malloreon'' to act as Garion’s personal option of last resort. Smuggling the group into first Cthol Murgos, and then Mallorea, Sadi adeptly navigates the halls of power in both Angarak nations, and within a few weeks of their arrival in Mal Zeth, becomes the largest crime lord in the capital, capable of summoning several hundred highwaymen when Garion decides he needs a distraction. With a case full of drugs that can warp people into doing what he wants, and the ability to poison a single person at a banquet with a thousand guests, Sadi never reforms, but makes himself absolutely indispensable in matters of intrigue, murder, and ultimately, saving the world.

to:

* MagnificentBastard: Sadi is the [[EvilChancellor Chief Eunuch at Salmissra’s court]], and the worst person the Prophecy ever drafts into assisting Garion and his companions. A MasterPoisoner and drug kingpin who had previously [[PlayingBothSides played both sides of the war]] in ''Literature/TheBelgariad'', Sadi is recruited during ''The Malloreon'' to act as Garion’s personal option of last resort. Smuggling the group into first Cthol Murgos, and then Mallorea, Sadi adeptly navigates the halls of power in both Angarak nations, and within a few weeks of their arrival in Mal Zeth, becomes the largest most powerful crime lord in the capital, capable of summoning several hundred highwaymen when Garion decides he needs a distraction. With a case full of drugs that can warp people into doing what he wants, and the ability to poison a single person at a banquet with a thousand guests, Sadi never reforms, but makes himself absolutely indispensable in matters of intrigue, murder, and ultimately, saving the world.



** Zedar is portrayed as having passed this when he kills [[spoiler:Durnik]]. He said was the one thing above all else that he didn't want to do, and it pushed Belgarath's BerserkButton something fierce. Considering all the other things he's done, the act itself doesn't really stand out, and it was probably more the last straw.

to:

** Zedar is portrayed as having passed this when he kills [[spoiler:Durnik]]. He said it was the one thing above all else that he didn't want to do, and it pushed Belgarath's BerserkButton something fierce.fierce (which might have been why he didn't want to do it, if the Angarak prophecies mentioned anything on that subject). Considering all the other things he's done, the act itself doesn't really stand out, and it was probably more the last straw.



** Polgara seems to have an increasingly uncomfortable interest in the sex life of both her father and her ultimate nephew, going as far as to describe exactly what Belgarath was up to during his self-exile in Maragor as well as determining, on her own, exactly when Garion was able to impregnate Ce'Nedra - though in the former case, the Marags were famous for their liberated sexuality and she was disposed to assume the worst of Belgarath at the time, and in latter case, that was more because there were magically determined circumstances. It wouldn't be surprising (but still very squicky) to know that she was in the room making sure he 'did it right'.

to:

** Polgara seems to have an increasingly uncomfortable interest in the sex life of both her father and her ultimate nephew, going as far as to describe exactly what Belgarath was up to during his self-exile in Maragor as well as determining, on her own, exactly when Garion was able to impregnate Ce'Nedra - though Ce'Nedra. However, in the former case, the Marags were famous for their liberated sexuality and she was disposed to assume the worst of Belgarath at the time, and in latter case, that was more because there were magically determined circumstances. It wouldn't be surprising (but still very squicky) to know that she was in the room making sure he 'did it right'.



* TastesLikeDiabetes: The denouement of ''The Malloreon'', where everyone pairs off with their LoveInterest and has BabiesEverAfter. [[LampshadeHanging Lampshaded]] by Silk.
* TooDumbToLive: Ctuchik when he tries to unmake the Orb of Aldur in a moment of panic, the conduit for one of the Purposes of the Universe. The Universe rebounds Ctuchik's attempt back on him, [[CessationOfExistence deleting him from existence.]] Also implied to be why there are so few sorcerers who possess the Will and the Word: many who awaken it may end up unmaking themselves.

to:

* TastesLikeDiabetes: The denouement of ''The Malloreon'', where everyone pairs off with their LoveInterest and has BabiesEverAfter. [[LampshadeHanging Lampshaded]] by Silk.
Silk, and, as on previous occasions, implied to be the Prophecy's way of saying thank you.
* TooDumbToLive: Ctuchik when he tries to unmake the Orb of Aldur (which was very near Garion) in a moment of panic, the conduit for one of the Purposes of the Universe. The Universe rebounds Ctuchik's attempt back on him, [[CessationOfExistence deleting him from existence.]] In fairness, he knew exactly who Garion was, so he had reason to panic. Also implied to be why there are so few sorcerers who possess the Will and the Word: many who awaken it may end up unmaking themselves.



** Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's {{Jerkass}} facade. The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].

to:

** Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's {{Jerkass}} facade.façade (this is literally her purpose, according to Belgarath, as part of Garion's education). The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation On the other hand]], even if Torak controlled him, Zedar used the fact [[NeverMyFault to make himself seem blameless for all that he did]], which includes: killing a King of Riva and sparking the war that nearly annihilated the country of Nyissa, since he manipulated the Queen into engineering the assassination, and potentially engineering the suicide of Belmakor, who was essentially a brother to Belgarath. Thousands of years of atrocities would have allowed Belgarath's anger at Zedar to come to a boil: Zedar killing Durnik ([[spoiler: even if Durnik was intended to die as the "sacrifice" in that particular EVENT]], whom he was close to, would have been the last straw for Belgarath.

to:

** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation On the other hand]], even if Torak controlled him, Zedar used the fact [[NeverMyFault to make himself seem blameless for all that he did]], which includes: killing a King of Riva and sparking the war that nearly annihilated the country of Nyissa, since he manipulated the Queen into engineering the assassination, and potentially engineering the suicide of Belmakor, who was essentially a brother to Belgarath. Thousands of years of atrocities would have allowed Belgarath's anger at Zedar to come to a boil: Zedar killing Durnik ([[spoiler: even if Durnik was intended to die as the "sacrifice" in that particular EVENT]], whom he was close to, would have been the last straw for Belgarath. Additionally, Zedar did choose to go to Torak in the first place of his own free will, and must have known what could potentially happen.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** On the "good guy's" side - Garion was raised to follow literally every order given to him by his elders in the service of an obscure prophecy, and to kill on command (see InformedWrongness below) without questioning, as a "Pawn of the Prophecy", if you will. The moment Garion realizes he was lied to and manipulated his entire life, and is now expected to follow orders unquestioningly, he embarks on the tiniest bit of attempted rebellion - which his superiors not only depict as childish petulance, but also use bullying and psychological manipulation to enforce their authority without ever coming out and stating what Garion did (practically nothing) and what is was in response to (which would sound fairly unpleasant if ever stated out loud). Even more horrifying when reading the prequels - Polgara has occasionally taken uncooperative heirs to the Rivan line who have already sired chilren into seclusion, waiting decades for them to die in isolation so that she could carry on the work with more pliant offspring.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotForKids: The series is sometimes put in the children's section of bookstores, and it raises some questions: "So what exactly makes the Belgariad suitable for children? The graphic descriptions of human sacrifices to Torak? The slave in Nyissa who dies from being eaten by leeches? Zedar's fate? The torture chamber in the second book? Just about all of Rak Cthol?"
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* AuthorsSavingThrow: After reading just how sadistic Asharak was in ''Polgara the Sorceress,'' his death may seem less AlasPoorVillain and more a KarmicDeath with a side helping of CatharsisFactor.


Added DiffLines:

*** Additionally, given that Asharak burned alive two people she cared deeply for, she probably feels like what happened to him was quite the KarmicDeath.

Changed: 19

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** [[EvilSorceress Zandramas]], the BigBad of ''The Malloreon'', is a former Grolim [[SinisterMinister priestess]] who liked to cut out people's hearts and [[BloodBath bathe in their blood]] while nude. Her crimes include [[BadPeopleAbuseAnimals cruelty to animals]]; [[ChronicBackstabbingDisorder betraying everyone who helps her]]; kidnapping Garion's son Geran; having successfully started a civil war in the east and attempting to start one in the west; [[MoreThanMindControl brainwashing Ce'Nedra]], regularly trying to break the rules of Prophecy; and [[ImAHumanitarian cannibalism]]. She uses ships to travel undetected, but once at her location, she kills the other sailors, often either by [[ManOnFire burning the ships]] or feeding the sailors to wild animals. Even the aforementioned Torak leaves a note to [[ArchEnemy Garion]] asking [[EvenEvilHasStandards him to stop Zandramas]].

to:

*** [[EvilSorceress Zandramas]], the BigBad of ''The Malloreon'', is a former Grolim [[SinisterMinister priestess]] who liked to cut out people's hearts and [[BloodBath bathe in their blood]] while nude. Her crimes include [[BadPeopleAbuseAnimals cruelty to animals]]; [[ChronicBackstabbingDisorder betraying everyone who helps her]]; kidnapping Garion's son Geran; having successfully started a civil war in the east and attempting to start one in the west; [[MoreThanMindControl brainwashing Ce'Nedra]], regularly trying to break the rules of Prophecy; and [[ImAHumanitarian cannibalism]]. She uses ships to travel undetected, but once at her location, she kills the other sailors, often either by [[ManOnFire burning the ships]] or feeding the sailors to wild animals. Even the aforementioned Torak leaves a note to [[ArchEnemy Garion]] asking [[EvenEvilHasStandards him to stop Zandramas]].

Added: 239

Changed: 155

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** The story is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk - no stranger to ruthlessness himself - being absolutely horrified by his fate.

to:

*** The story is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk - no (no stranger to ruthlessness himself himself) and freaking ''Zakath'' - who's about two steps away from being a CompleteMonster for a chunk of the series - being absolutely horrified by his fate.



** After being a sinister looming presence during the first book and most of the second one, and in spite of his importance in the backstory as he's the one who [[spoiler:killed Garion's parents]], [[spoiler:Asharak/Chamdar]] is dispatched rather easily when he tries to ambush the heroes [[spoiler:who are trying to leave Tolnedra]]. He threatens Garion's life, [[spoiler:Garion's powers are suddenly awakened and he burns him alive, Polnadra suddenly reveals that he is the one who killed Garion's parents, which give him the will to continue the spell until Chamdar dies without being able to counter-attack]]. This is not entirely surprising, considering that [[spoiler: Asharak/Chamdar]] is a SmallNameBigEgo character, whose main threat to Garion is because until that point, Garion has no way to defend himself.

to:

** After being a sinister looming presence during the first book and most of the second one, and in spite of his importance in the backstory as he's the one who [[spoiler:killed Garion's parents]], [[spoiler:Asharak/Chamdar]] is dispatched rather easily when he tries to ambush the heroes [[spoiler:who are trying to leave Tolnedra]]. He threatens Garion's life, [[spoiler:Garion's powers are suddenly awakened and he burns him alive, Polnadra Polgara suddenly reveals that he is the one who killed Garion's parents, which give him the will to continue the spell until Chamdar dies without being able to counter-attack]]. This is not entirely surprising, considering that [[spoiler: Asharak/Chamdar]] is a SmallNameBigEgo character, whose main threat to Garion is because until that point, Garion has no way to defend himself.



** PlayedWith regarding Zandramas - she's apparently gorgeous, but she spends most of her time hooded, slowly [[spoiler: transforms into a HumanoidAbomination made of stars]], and her one attempt to seduce Garion is pretty much laughed at.



* {{Wangst}}: Happens all the time to Garion in this series, complete with his CatchPhrase, which becomes a RunningGag: "Why me?" It's intentional, though -- he's a teenager, and there's a lot of questions he has that Belgarath and Polgara simply won't answer. The other characters frequently tell him he needs to get over himself. In the latter past of the first series, he has, more or less, and finally does so completely in the sequel series, which takes place ten years later. He even explains it to Zakath, when ''he'' starts in with the same questions, on being told that he'll join the group or die before the end of the year.
* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotDidactic: An in-universe example: Belgarath, in the guise of a wandering storyteller, tells a ghost story about a group of greedy miners sneaking into Maragor and eaten by the ghosts therein. Everyone looks horrified until Faldor laughs and handwaves the story as a sermon against greed and fear. This ends up becoming HarsherInHindsight when the protagonists actually travel to Maragor, which really is filled with the ghosts of the Marags, slaughtered by the Tolnedrans ages ago for the massive gold deposits there, though the excuse was the [[ImAHumanitarian ritualized cannibalism they performed.]]

to:

* {{Wangst}}: Happens all the time to Garion in this the first series, complete with his CatchPhrase, which becomes a RunningGag: "Why me?" It's intentional, though -- he's a teenager, and there's a lot of questions he has that Belgarath and Polgara simply won't answer. The other characters frequently tell him he needs to get over himself. In the latter past of the first series, he has, more or less, and finally does so completely in the sequel series, which takes place ten years later. He even explains it to Zakath, when ''he'' starts in with the same questions, on being told that he'll join the group or die before the end of the year.
* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotDidactic: An in-universe example: Belgarath, in the guise of a wandering storyteller, tells a ghost story about a group of greedy miners sneaking into Maragor and eaten by the ghosts therein. Everyone looks horrified until Faldor laughs and handwaves the story as a sermon against greed and fear. This ends up becoming HarsherInHindsight when the protagonists actually travel to Maragor, which really is filled with the ghosts of the Marags, slaughtered by the Tolnedrans ages ago for the massive gold deposits there, though the excuse was the [[ImAHumanitarian ritualized cannibalism they performed.performed thanks to misreading a sacred text.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
per Trope Repair Shop, Jerkass Facade is being cut in favor of Hidden Heart Of Gold / Jerk With A Heart Of Gold.


** Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's JerkassFacade. The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].

to:

** Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's JerkassFacade.{{Jerkass}} facade. The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* MagnificentBastard: Sadi is the [[EvilChancellor Chief Eunuch at Salmissra’s court]], and with the possible exception of pre CharacterDevelopment 'Zakath ('Zakath changes and has an ''epic'' MyGodWhatHaveIDone moment. Sadi doesn't), the worst person the Prophecy ever drafts into assisting Garion and his companions. A MasterPoisoner and drug kingpin who had previously [[PlayingBothSides played both sides of the war]] in ''Literature/TheBelgariad'', Sadi is recruited during ''The Malloreon'' to act as Garion’s personal option of last resort. Smuggling the group into first Cthol Murgos, and then Mallorea, Sadi adeptly navigates the halls of power in both Angarak nations, and within a few weeks of their arrival in Mal Zeth, becomes the largest crime lord in the capital, capable of summoning several hundred highwaymen when Garion decides he needs a distraction. With a case full of drugs that can warp people into doing what he wants, and the ability to poison a single person at a banquet with a thousand guests, Sadi never reforms (he does become more friendly, but that's about it), but makes himself absolutely indispensable in matters of intrigue, murder, and ultimately, saving the world.

to:

* MagnificentBastard: Sadi is the [[EvilChancellor Chief Eunuch at Salmissra’s court]], and with the possible exception of pre CharacterDevelopment 'Zakath ('Zakath changes and has an ''epic'' MyGodWhatHaveIDone moment. Sadi doesn't), the worst person the Prophecy ever drafts into assisting Garion and his companions. A MasterPoisoner and drug kingpin who had previously [[PlayingBothSides played both sides of the war]] in ''Literature/TheBelgariad'', Sadi is recruited during ''The Malloreon'' to act as Garion’s personal option of last resort. Smuggling the group into first Cthol Murgos, and then Mallorea, Sadi adeptly navigates the halls of power in both Angarak nations, and within a few weeks of their arrival in Mal Zeth, becomes the largest crime lord in the capital, capable of summoning several hundred highwaymen when Garion decides he needs a distraction. With a case full of drugs that can warp people into doing what he wants, and the ability to poison a single person at a banquet with a thousand guests, Sadi never reforms (he does become more friendly, but that's about it), reforms, but makes himself absolutely indispensable in matters of intrigue, murder, and ultimately, saving the world.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Do not edit approved Magnificent Bastard entries without getting permission from the cleanup thread.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** It all ultimately comes down how aware of/in control of his actions you think Zedar was under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable he should be held for them. If he had little to no free will of his own, then he's sympathetic, but if he actually had some degree of choice in the bad things he did (and it's implied that he did, because Torak demonstrates absolutely nothing in the way of patience or imagination, while Zedar demonstrated plenty of both), then he's unsympathetic. And let's not even get into a debate of how accountable a person should be held for the actions he or she did while under mind control...

to:

** It all ultimately comes down how aware of/in control of his actions you think Zedar was under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable he should be held for them. If he had little to no free will of his own, then he's sympathetic, but if he actually had some degree of choice in the bad things he did (and it's implied that he did, because Torak demonstrates absolutely nothing in the way of patience or imagination, while Zedar demonstrated plenty of both), then he's unsympathetic. And let's not even get into a debate of how accountable a person should be held for the actions he or she did while under mind control...

Added: 1161

Changed: 1353

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* AngelUnaware: It is HEAVILY implied, though not outright stated, that the old man in the rickety cart that Belgarath first meets as a young boy is Aldur in disguise. Belgarath and Polgara meet a man described very similar in the mountains... several thousands of years later. Garion and Company meet this same man later on their way to Cthol Mishrak. Belgarath takes care to mention his deep blue eyes that look far too young for an old man and his bell like laughter, both traits Aldur shares. No one in the story seems to be able to make the connection.

to:

* AngelUnaware: It is HEAVILY implied, though not outright stated, that AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, which blurs with DeliberateValuesDissonance, and the old man past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the rickety cart ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use. Though it has to be said, he notes that he never really liked using it, solely doing so on political grounds)]] Yeah. Though it should be said that he has a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing, and it's implied at the end that [[spoiler: spreading the gospel of Eriond]], something that will take him the rest of his life, is fate's way of getting him to make up for it.
** Lampshaded when
Belgarath first meets as a young boy is Aldur in disguise. Belgarath and Polgara meet a man described very similar in the mountains... several thousands of years later. tells Garion and Company meet this same man later on their way to Cthol Mishrak. Belgarath takes care to mention his deep blue eyes that he dislikes talking about good and evil, and prefers to just say 'us and them'.
** '''Zedar.''' How in control of/aware of his actions was he while under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable should he be held for them? Was he a tragic character whose only mistake was thinking he could take on Torak on his own, as Zedar himself claims, or was he a DirtyCoward who used the mind control as an excuse to avoid facing up to all the terrible things he did? If it's the latter, then his final, AndIMustScream fate is LaserGuidedKarma, but if it's the former, then's both DisproportionateRetribution and [[ColdBloodedTorture cruel and unusual punishment]] on Belgarath's part. It certainly doesn't help analysis of his character that Belgarath, Polgara, and Beldin are all looking at him through an ''extremely'' personal and emotional point of view, and are therefore no way willing to
look far too young for at him from any sort of charitable perspective, much less an old man and his bell like laughter, both traits Aldur shares. No one in the ''objective'' one.
*** The
story seems is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk - no stranger to be able to make the connection.ruthlessness himself - being absolutely horrified by his fate.

Removed: 5734

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Not a YMMV trope. Also full of natter and justifying edits.


* AbusiveParents: Polgara to Garion. Emotionally and mentally. She keeps him ignorant his entire life, and then berates him when he is unaware of things he should have learned years prior. While he was having an existential crisis, after having just murdered a man in the name of vengeance, she berates him, calls him a child, and proceeds to list all the sacrifices she supposedly made just to allow him to come into existence. He was all of fifteen at the time. She allows Ce'Nedra to walk all over him and when he attempts to defend himself, she prevents it and chastises him for even considering it. She invades his mind and constantly calls him by a name he never knew before. She insists on continuing to wash him well into his teenage years, and announces as much loudly in front of several grown adults. Any time he attempts to learn a new skill with the other adult males, she will go out of her way to try to prevent it. When he is trying to come to terms with his entry into the world of magic, instead of trying to be understanding and guide him, she tells him he is being childish and needs to grow up. Again, he was barely fifteen. Any time he attempts to make a decision for himself, she will insist he is wrong and if he does so against her wishes, will berate him regardless of the success of the idea. She attempts to control every aspect of his life right down to WHEN he can impregnate his wife (that she forced upon him).
** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation On the other hand,]] the ignorant part is partly so he can fly under the radar (a number of his ancestors didn't, and either died or nearly died as a result), partly because she considers literacy overrated (she's very literate, but wasn't until her teens, and felt she didn't need it growing up) and she gets called out for it by Belgarath. Her berating him is driven less by his moral crisis, more by the fact that in the midst of it, he called her a cold and unfeeling monster who never really cared about him and states that the two of them are done. Considering that she's got a temper and had spent the previous 1300 years devoted to protecting his family, it's not surprising that she reacted the way she did, even if it isn't a good thing. She doesn't entirely allow Ce'Nedra to walk over him (the two get into some prize-winning arguments), and only does so to force them to be around each other - which, again, is not necessarily a good thing, but probably Necessary, to get them together. The washing is dragging/sending him off to get him bathed rather than washing him personally. The getting Ce'Nedra pregnant part wasn't necessarily up to her, either, more something they had to wait for (it required a magic tree to grow, what with Ce'Nedra being a Dryad), and she was merely telling him to be patient.
//
However, she IS chronically overprotective. This is in large part because she's the closest thing Garion has to a mother (and prone to worrying), implied to be haunted by [[MyGreatestFailure not being there to save Garion's parents]], and extremely conscious of his vulnerability before his talents really come through, along with his talent for getting InHarmsWay). She's repeatedly called on this by Belgarath, who at one point notes that she tends to get too attached (psychically, in that case, but it's related to her feelings for Garion), and she admits that he has a point.
** Basically, it depends whether you see Polgara as simply Garion's overprotective ParentalSubstitute, or his StealthMentor, or a mixture of the two.
* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, which blurs with DeliberateValuesDissonance, and the past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use. Though it has to be said, he notes that he never really liked using it, solely doing so on political grounds)]] Yeah. Though it should be said that he has a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing, and it's implied at the end that [[spoiler: spreading the gospel of Eriond]], something that will take him the rest of his life, is fate's way of getting him to make up for it.
** Lampshaded when Belgarath tells Garion that he dislikes talking about good and evil, and prefers to just say 'us and them'.
** '''Zedar.''' How in control of/aware of his actions was he while under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable should he be held for them? Was he a tragic character whose only mistake was thinking he could take on Torak on his own, as Zedar himself claims, or was he a DirtyCoward who used the mind control as an excuse to avoid facing up to all the terrible things he did? If it's the latter, then his final, AndIMustScream fate is LaserGuidedKarma, but if it's the former, then's both DisproportionateRetribution and [[ColdBloodedTorture cruel and unusual punishment]] on Belgarath's part. It certainly doesn't help analysis of his character that Belgarath, Polgara, and Beldin are all looking at him through an ''extremely'' personal and emotional point of view, and are therefore no way willing to look at him from any sort of charitable perspective, much less an ''objective'' one.
*** The story is at least somewhat aware of this, with Silk - no stranger to ruthlessness himself - being absolutely horrified by his fate.

Added: 3176

Changed: 6385

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
We first meet Zedar in the first series, after several thousand years of enslavement to Torak. It's perfectly plausible that he was more haughty and ruthless before (the Rivan King scheme was also mentioned in passing in the first series).


* AbusiveParents: Polgara to Garion. Emotionally and mentally. She keeps him ignorant his entire life, and then berates him when he is unaware of things he should have learned years prior. While he was having an existential crisis, after having just murdered a man in the name of vengeance, she berates him, calls him a child, and proceeds to list all the sacrifices she supposedly made just to allow him to come into existence. He was all of fifteen at the time. She allows Ce'Nedra to walk all over him and when he attempts to defend himself, she prevents it and chastises him for even considering it.. She invades his mind unwelcomed and constantly calls him by a name he never knew before. She insists on continuing to wash him well into his teenage years, and announces as much loudly in front of several grown adults. Any time he attempts to learn a new skill with the other adult males, she will go out of her way to try to prevent it. When he is trying to come to terms with his entry into the world of magic, instead of trying to be understanding and guide him, she tells him he is being childish and needs to grow up. Again, he was barely fifteen. Any time he attempts to make a decision for himself, she will insist he is wrong and if he does so against her wishes, will berate him regardless of the success of the idea. She attempts to control every aspect of his life right down to WHEN he can impregnate his wife (that she forced upon him).

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, and the past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use.) Yeah. Though it should be said that he has a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing.]]

to:

* AbusiveParents: Polgara to Garion. Emotionally and mentally. She keeps him ignorant his entire life, and then berates him when he is unaware of things he should have learned years prior. While he was having an existential crisis, after having just murdered a man in the name of vengeance, she berates him, calls him a child, and proceeds to list all the sacrifices she supposedly made just to allow him to come into existence. He was all of fifteen at the time. She allows Ce'Nedra to walk all over him and when he attempts to defend himself, she prevents it and chastises him for even considering it.. it. She invades his mind unwelcomed and constantly calls him by a name he never knew before. She insists on continuing to wash him well into his teenage years, and announces as much loudly in front of several grown adults. Any time he attempts to learn a new skill with the other adult males, she will go out of her way to try to prevent it. When he is trying to come to terms with his entry into the world of magic, instead of trying to be understanding and guide him, she tells him he is being childish and needs to grow up. Again, he was barely fifteen. Any time he attempts to make a decision for himself, she will insist he is wrong and if he does so against her wishes, will berate him regardless of the success of the idea. She attempts to control every aspect of his life right down to WHEN he can impregnate his wife (that she forced upon him).

him).
** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation On the other hand,]] the ignorant part is partly so he can fly under the radar (a number of his ancestors didn't, and either died or nearly died as a result), partly because she considers literacy overrated (she's very literate, but wasn't until her teens, and felt she didn't need it growing up) and she gets called out for it by Belgarath. Her berating him is driven less by his moral crisis, more by the fact that in the midst of it, he called her a cold and unfeeling monster who never really cared about him and states that the two of them are done. Considering that she's got a temper and had spent the previous 1300 years devoted to protecting his family, it's not surprising that she reacted the way she did, even if it isn't a good thing. She doesn't entirely allow Ce'Nedra to walk over him (the two get into some prize-winning arguments), and only does so to force them to be around each other - which, again, is not necessarily a good thing, but probably Necessary, to get them together. The washing is dragging/sending him off to get him bathed rather than washing him personally. The getting Ce'Nedra pregnant part wasn't necessarily up to her, either, more something they had to wait for (it required a magic tree to grow, what with Ce'Nedra being a Dryad), and she was merely telling him to be patient.
//
However, she IS chronically overprotective. This is in large part because she's the closest thing Garion has to a mother (and prone to worrying), implied to be haunted by [[MyGreatestFailure not being there to save Garion's parents]], and extremely conscious of his vulnerability before his talents really come through, along with his talent for getting InHarmsWay). She's repeatedly called on this by Belgarath, who at one point notes that she tends to get too attached (psychically, in that case, but it's related to her feelings for Garion), and she admits that he has a point.
** Basically, it depends whether you see Polgara as simply Garion's overprotective ParentalSubstitute, or his StealthMentor, or a mixture of the two.
* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The entire series has a bad case of ProtagonistCenteredMorality, which blurs with DeliberateValuesDissonance, and the past crimes of characters are quickly forgotten as soon as they join the heroes. A reader might well be quite surprised at the portrayal of [[spoiler:Zakath]] as a decent guy who made some bad mistakes late in the ''Malloreon'', considering that this is the guy who [[spoiler: tried and nearly damn succeeded in wiping out an entire race because of something their king did, and used to call himself 'Kal Zakath' ('Kal' meaning 'King and God'- i.e. the title that ''Torak'' used to use.) Though it has to be said, he notes that he never really liked using it, solely doing so on political grounds)]] Yeah. Though it should be said that he has a full on breakdown when he realises that all he did was for nothing.]]nothing, and it's implied at the end that [[spoiler: spreading the gospel of Eriond]], something that will take him the rest of his life, is fate's way of getting him to make up for it.



** '''Zedar.''' How in control of/aware of his actions was he while under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable should he be held for them? Was he a tragic character whose only mistake was thinking he could take on Torak on his own, or was he a DirtyCoward who used the mind control as an excuse to avoid facing up to all the terrible things he did? If it's the latter, then his final, AndIMustScream fate is LaserGuidedKarma, but if it's the former, then's both DisproportionateRetribution and [[ColdBloodedTorture cruel and unusual punishment]] on Belgarath's part. It certainly doesn't help analysis of his character that Belgarath, Polgara, and Beldin are all looking at him through an ''extremely'' personal and emotional point of view, and are therefore no way willing to look at him from any sort of charitable perspective, much less an ''objective'' one.

to:

** '''Zedar.''' How in control of/aware of his actions was he while under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable should he be held for them? Was he a tragic character whose only mistake was thinking he could take on Torak on his own, as Zedar himself claims, or was he a DirtyCoward who used the mind control as an excuse to avoid facing up to all the terrible things he did? If it's the latter, then his final, AndIMustScream fate is LaserGuidedKarma, but if it's the former, then's both DisproportionateRetribution and [[ColdBloodedTorture cruel and unusual punishment]] on Belgarath's part. It certainly doesn't help analysis of his character that Belgarath, Polgara, and Beldin are all looking at him through an ''extremely'' personal and emotional point of view, and are therefore no way willing to look at him from any sort of charitable perspective, much less an ''objective'' one.



* AngelUnaware: It is HEAVILY implied, though not outright stated, that the old man in the rickety cart that Belgarath first meets as a young boy is Aldur in disguise. Belgarath and Polgara meet a man described very similar in the mountains...several thousands of years later. Garion and Company meet this same man later on their way to Cthol Mishrak. Belgarath takes care to mention his deep blue eyes that look far too young for an old man and his bell like laughter, both traits Aldur shares. No one in the story seems to be able to make the connection.
* AngstWhatAngst: Taiba escapes from a lifetime of slavery, after having had her children forcibly taken from her and horrifically murdered, and yet she never seems to be sad or angry after she's rescued. It could be taken as a kind of emotional numbness, caused by shock, but it's still a bit jarring.

to:

* AngelUnaware: It is HEAVILY implied, though not outright stated, that the old man in the rickety cart that Belgarath first meets as a young boy is Aldur in disguise. Belgarath and Polgara meet a man described very similar in the mountains... several thousands of years later. Garion and Company meet this same man later on their way to Cthol Mishrak. Belgarath takes care to mention his deep blue eyes that look far too young for an old man and his bell like laughter, both traits Aldur shares. No one in the story seems to be able to make the connection.
* AngstWhatAngst: Taiba escapes from a lifetime of slavery, after having had her children forcibly taken from her and horrifically murdered, and yet she never seems to be sad or angry after she's rescued. It could It's initially implied to be taken as a kind of emotional numbness, caused by shock, going by her breakdown following news of Ctuchik's death (avenging her children by murdering was her only reason for living up to that point), but it's still a bit jarring.



** After being a sinister looming presence during the first book and most of the second one, and in spite of his importance in the backstory as he's the one who [[spoiler:killed Garion's parents]], [[spoiler:Asharak/Chamdar]] is dispatched rather easily when he tries to ambush the heroes [[spoiler:who are trying to leave Tolnedra]]. He threatens Garion's life, [[spoiler:Garion's powers are suddenly awakened and he burns him alive, Polnadra suddenly reveals that he is the one who killed Garion's parents, which give him the will to continue the spell until Chamdar dies without being able to counter-attack]].
** [[spoiler:Zedar]] is one of Torak's CoDragons and the one who kickstarted the entire plot [[spoiler:by stealing the Orb]]. He also was one [[spoiler:of Aldur's students]] and is meant to be as old and probably as powerful as Belgarath himself. When he's finally confronted, he's defeated in the span of a few pages ''off-screen'' and doesn't even get to cast one spell, as most of the battle we see is him and Belgarath fighting over a dagger to stab each other. (Although it's justified story-wise. When he and Belgarath finally meet face to face, Belgarath is so enraged and [[spoiler:Zedar]] so panicked that they resort to a fistfight instead of a WizardDuel.)

to:

** After being a sinister looming presence during the first book and most of the second one, and in spite of his importance in the backstory as he's the one who [[spoiler:killed Garion's parents]], [[spoiler:Asharak/Chamdar]] is dispatched rather easily when he tries to ambush the heroes [[spoiler:who are trying to leave Tolnedra]]. He threatens Garion's life, [[spoiler:Garion's powers are suddenly awakened and he burns him alive, Polnadra suddenly reveals that he is the one who killed Garion's parents, which give him the will to continue the spell until Chamdar dies without being able to counter-attack]].
counter-attack]]. This is not entirely surprising, considering that [[spoiler: Asharak/Chamdar]] is a SmallNameBigEgo character, whose main threat to Garion is because until that point, Garion has no way to defend himself.
** [[spoiler:Zedar]] is one of Torak's CoDragons and the one who kickstarted the entire plot [[spoiler:by stealing the Orb]]. He also was one [[spoiler:of Aldur's students]] and is meant to be as old and probably as powerful as Belgarath himself. When he's finally confronted, he's defeated in the span of a few pages ''off-screen'' and doesn't even get to cast one spell, as most of the battle we see is him and Belgarath fighting over a dagger to stab each other. (Although it's justified story-wise. When he and Belgarath finally meet face to face, Belgarath is so enraged and [[spoiler:Zedar]] so panicked that they resort to a fistfight instead of a WizardDuel.)WizardDuel - they ''do'' have a WizardDuel in Belgarath's prequel, and Belgarath kicks the crap out of him.)



-->''"What happened to you leg?" Wolf asked [Reldegen].\\

to:

-->''"What happened to you your leg?" Wolf asked [Reldegen].\\



* JerkassWoobie: Ce'Nedra in ''The Malloreon''. While she's still as bossy and demanding as in ''The Belgariad'', it's hard not to feel at least a little pity towards her when she [[spoiler:loses her father]] during the first book or after [[spoiler:her son is kidnapped by Zandramas]], especially since Zandramas seems to love [[YankTheDogsChain yanking her chain]].
* MagnificentBastard: Sadi is the [[EvilChancellor Chief Eunuch at Salmissra’s court]], and the worst person the Prophecy ever drafts into assisting Garion and his companions. A MasterPoisoner and drug kingpin who had previously [[PlayingBothSides played both sides of the war]] in ''Literature/TheBelgariad'', Sadi is recruited during ''The Malloreon'' to act as Garion’s personal option of last resort. Smuggling the group into first Cthol Murgos, and then Mallorea, Sadi adeptly navigates the halls of power in both Angarak nations, and within a few weeks of their arrival in Mal Zeth, becomes the largest crime lord in the capital, capable of summoning several hundred highwaymen when Garion decides he needs a distraction. With a case full of drugs that can warp people into doing what he wants, and the ability to poison a single person at a banquet with a thousand guests, Sadi never reforms, but makes himself absolutely indispensable in matters of intrigue, murder, and ultimately, saving the world.

to:

** On the other hand, Polgara is notably unhappy at his moral crisis (that he's suffering) while the Prophecy is less sympathetic. And both Polgara and the Prophecy have a point, [[JerkassHasAPoint even if it isn't a very nice one or pleasantly expressed.]] It is made very clear that whether he likes it or not, Garion's power is finding its way out in all sorts of ways, and with the sheer scale of it, he ''really'' needs to get it under control. Additionally, getting him to accept the name Belgarion is part of getting him to accept his powers and the fact that (as he later finds out) he's the heir to the Rivan Throne, rather than just plain old Garion the farmboy. And from a point of view, what she says is correct: Beldaran ''did'' die (rather than going on to become a sorceress like Polgara, though it's deliberately left ambiguous whether she had the potential or not) founding the line of Garion's ancestors, Polgara ''has'' spent the last 1300 years watching over his family, often in rather impoverished circumstances, to ensure his birth, meaning that it's not surprising that she reacts like that when he tells her that she's a cold, unfeeling monster (cold, yes, but Polgara's the opposite of unfeeling - sometimes too much) and that the two of them are done. So she did technically do all of that for him, if originally for the abstract idea of Garion rather than Garion himself, and Beldaran did ''technically'' die for him (the latter isn't a rational claim, as such, but it's noted that Polgara has many unresolved issues over the loss of her sister).
* JerkassWoobie: Ce'Nedra in ''The Malloreon''. While she's still as bossy and demanding as in ''The Belgariad'', if [[JerkWithAHeartOfGold having mellowed somewhat]], it's hard not to feel at least a little pity towards her when she [[spoiler:loses her father]] during the first book book, goes through a lot of angst about fearing that she's not able to conceive, or after [[spoiler:her son is kidnapped kidnapped]] by Zandramas]], Zandramas, especially since Zandramas seems to love [[YankTheDogsChain yanking her chain]].
* MagnificentBastard: Sadi is the [[EvilChancellor Chief Eunuch at Salmissra’s court]], and with the possible exception of pre CharacterDevelopment 'Zakath ('Zakath changes and has an ''epic'' MyGodWhatHaveIDone moment. Sadi doesn't), the worst person the Prophecy ever drafts into assisting Garion and his companions. A MasterPoisoner and drug kingpin who had previously [[PlayingBothSides played both sides of the war]] in ''Literature/TheBelgariad'', Sadi is recruited during ''The Malloreon'' to act as Garion’s personal option of last resort. Smuggling the group into first Cthol Murgos, and then Mallorea, Sadi adeptly navigates the halls of power in both Angarak nations, and within a few weeks of their arrival in Mal Zeth, becomes the largest crime lord in the capital, capable of summoning several hundred highwaymen when Garion decides he needs a distraction. With a case full of drugs that can warp people into doing what he wants, and the ability to poison a single person at a banquet with a thousand guests, Sadi never reforms, reforms (he does become more friendly, but that's about it), but makes himself absolutely indispensable in matters of intrigue, murder, and ultimately, saving the world.



** Zedar is portrayed as having passed this when he kills [[spoiler:Durnik]]. He said was the one thing above all else that he didn't want to do, and it pushed Belgarath's BerserkButton something fierce.
** Ctuchik crosses it the second he opens his mouth, confirming all the horrible things we've heard about him up to this point. Zandramas crosses it when they find the bones of the men whose legs she broke so that she could leave them for the lions.

to:

** Zedar is portrayed as having passed this when he kills [[spoiler:Durnik]]. He said was the one thing above all else that he didn't want to do, and it pushed Belgarath's BerserkButton something fierce.
fierce. Considering all the other things he's done, the act itself doesn't really stand out, and it was probably more the last straw.
** Ctuchik crosses it the second he opens his mouth, confirming all the horrible things we've heard about him up to this point.
**
Zandramas crosses it when they find the bones of the men whose legs she broke so that she could leave them for the lions.lions. As is noted, she doesn't just kill them, she does it as horribly as possible.



** Polgara seems to have an increasingly uncomfortable interest in the sex life of both her father and her ultimate nephew, going as far as to describe exactly what Belgarath was up to during his self-exile in Maragor as well as determining, on her own, exactly when Garion was allowed to impregnate Ce'Nedra. It wouldn't be surprising (but still very squicky) to know that she was in the room making sure he 'did it right'.
* TheScrappy: Ce'Nedra just ''barely'' misses becoming this, and that only because of her SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome. Although, to some fans the CMOA wasn't enough to save her.

to:

** Polgara seems to have an increasingly uncomfortable interest in the sex life of both her father and her ultimate nephew, going as far as to describe exactly what Belgarath was up to during his self-exile in Maragor as well as determining, on her own, exactly when Garion was allowed able to impregnate Ce'Nedra.Ce'Nedra - though in the former case, the Marags were famous for their liberated sexuality and she was disposed to assume the worst of Belgarath at the time, and in latter case, that was more because there were magically determined circumstances. It wouldn't be surprising (but still very squicky) to know that she was in the room making sure he 'did it right'.
* TheScrappy: Ce'Nedra just ''barely'' misses becoming this, this in the first series, and that only because of her SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome. Although, to some fans the CMOA wasn't enough to save her. In the second series, CharacterDevelopment helps her out.



** It all ultimately comes down how aware of/in control of his actions you think Zedar was under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable he should be held for them. If he had little to no free will of his own, then he's sympathetic, but if he actually had some degree of choice in the bad things he did, then he's unsympathetic. (And let's not get into a debate of how accountable a person should be held for the actions he or she did while under mind control...)

to:

** It all ultimately comes down how aware of/in control of his actions you think Zedar was under Torak's control, and therefore how accountable he should be held for them. If he had little to no free will of his own, then he's sympathetic, but if he actually had some degree of choice in the bad things he did (and it's implied that he did, because Torak demonstrates absolutely nothing in the way of patience or imagination, while Zedar demonstrated plenty of both), then he's unsympathetic. (And And let's not even get into a debate of how accountable a person should be held for the actions he or she did while under mind control...)



* {{Wangst}}: Happens all the time to Garion in this series, complete with his CatchPhrase, which becomes a RunningGag: "Why me?" It's intentional, though -- he's a teenager, and there's a lot of questions he has that Belgarath and Polgara simply won't answer. The other characters frequently tell him he needs to get over himself. In the sequel series, which takes place ten years later, he has. He even explains it to Zakath, when ''he'' starts in with the same questions, on being told that he'll join the group or die before the end of the year.

to:

* {{Wangst}}: Happens all the time to Garion in this series, complete with his CatchPhrase, which becomes a RunningGag: "Why me?" It's intentional, though -- he's a teenager, and there's a lot of questions he has that Belgarath and Polgara simply won't answer. The other characters frequently tell him he needs to get over himself. In the latter past of the first series, he has, more or less, and finally does so completely in the sequel series, which takes place ten years later, he has.later. He even explains it to Zakath, when ''he'' starts in with the same questions, on being told that he'll join the group or die before the end of the year.



** Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's JerkassFacade. The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra and Lelldorin appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].
** Zedar -- period. Manipulated by both prophecies to serve their ends, his reward for finding Errand/Eriond--not to mention allowing the Light side to win the EVENT at the end of ''The Belgariad'', (if he hadn't (in self defense) killed Durnik, Polgara would've submitted to Torak and Garion would've lost the fight)--is eternal entombment in solid rock...and Durnik got better. The prequels give him lots of OutOfCharacter KickTheDog moments to try and justify this but it still comes off as harsh, especially considering Belgarath, who entombs him, has done some seriously questionable things himself. It's also implied that he's little more than Torak's puppet - his will so totally overwhelmed by the insane evil god's that he wasn't in control of his own actions. None of that matters, Belgarath happily condemns him to an AndIMustScream fate without much in the way of qualm (he considers letting Zedar out a couple of times, but Beldin bluntly states that if he did, he'd put Zedar right back a moment later).

to:

** Vordai's purpose in the books is to be a sympathetic character who manages to break through Belgarath's JerkassFacade. The Arendish serf Lammer serves a similar purpose with respect to making Ce'Nedra and Lelldorin (and indirectly, via Garion, Lelldorin) appreciate the plight of the serfs. And then there's the brain-damaged boy with the flute. Zedar is set up to appear as this to an extent, as his only real mistake was in daring to think he could outwit Torak, and the punishment for it was millennia of enslavement to the God's CompellingVoice and, at the end, [[spoiler: eternal imprisonment in solid rock]].
** Zedar -- period. Manipulated by both prophecies to serve their ends, his reward for finding Errand/Eriond--not to mention allowing the Light side to win the EVENT at the end of ''The Belgariad'', (if he hadn't (in self defense) killed Durnik, Polgara would've submitted to Torak and Garion would've lost the fight)--is eternal entombment in solid rock... and Durnik got better. The prequels give him lots of OutOfCharacter KickTheDog moments to try and justify this but it still comes off as harsh, especially considering Belgarath, who entombs him, has done some seriously questionable things himself. It's also implied that he's little more than Torak's puppet - his will so totally overwhelmed by the insane evil god's that he wasn't in control of his own actions. None of that matters, Belgarath happily condemns him to an AndIMustScream fate without much in the way of qualm (he considers letting Zedar out a couple of times, but Beldin bluntly states that if he did, he'd put Zedar right back a moment later).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Polgara seems to have an increasingly uncomfortable interest in the sex life of both her father and her ultimate nephew, going as far as to describe exactly what Belgarath was up to during his self-exile in Maragor as well as determining, on her own, exactly when Garion was allowed to impregnate Ce'Nedra. It wouldn't be surprising (but still very squicky) to know that she was in the room making sure he 'did it right'.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* AbusiveParents: Polgara to Garion. Emotionally and mentally. She keeps him ignorant his entire life, and then berates him when he is unaware of things he should have learned years prior. While he was having an existential crisis, after having just murdered a man in the name of vengeance, she berates him, calls him a child, and proceeds to list all the sacrifices she supposedly made just to allow him to come into existence. He was all of fifteen at the time. She allows Ce'Nedra to walk all over him and when he attempts to defend himself, she prevents it and chastises him for even considering it.. She invades his mind unwelcomed and constantly calls him by a name he never knew before. She insists on continuing to wash him well into his teenage years, and announces as much loudly in front of several grown adults. Any time he attempts to learn a new skill with the other adult males, she will go out of her way to try to prevent it. When he is trying to come to terms with his entry into the world of magic, instead of trying to be understanding and guide him, she tells him he is being childish and needs to grow up. Again, he was barely fifteen. Any time he attempts to make a decision for himself, she will insist he is wrong and if he does so against her wishes, will berate him regardless of the success of the idea. She attempts to control every aspect of his life right down to WHEN he can impregnate his wife (that she forced upon him).

Top