Discussion YMMV / Thecolbertreport

Well even if that's the case then the fault is on the audience for their reaction, not on Colbert, or Chappelle, Rock, and Cho for that matter (here's an instance of Chappelle "using Asians as a tool" to satirize police racism against blacks for one) for making jokes that are interpreted in a way opposite from their intent. Even so, it's known that the staff encourages the audience beforehand to laugh as loudly and as often as possible for the cameras as part of the charade. What you hear from the audience is not the best barometer for what they truly think.

As a proud East Asian who personally wasn't offended (and I know I'm not alone in this), the intent was pretty clear. Most Americans probably don't give a crap about Natives, and have been pretty dismissive of "redskins" as an offensive slur in the past. So, the best way to raise its visibility is to parallel it to something that the American public does recognize as obviously offensive, and hopefully at least some viewers will be smart enough to make the comparisons and do something about it. It's not a case of him using the satire excuse as an shield to say hateful things and get away with it like, oh you know, that whole bit on Jon Kyl's "not intended to be a factual statement", which is what Parody Retcon is about.

Now if he used something like "Lord Toffington's Limey Association for Acceptance of Pommies" or "Doktor Mengele's Foundation for Kraut Relations" it just wouldn't have enough punch, because A. comparisons between disadvantaged groups like Native Americans and actually privileged groups aren't helpful, and B. it's not offensive enough for anybody to care. Blockading all non-Acceptable Targets from being used in these kinds of jokes ever would turn the show's satire listless and unable to get the visceral reaction it needs to make its point. Maybe it could be argued that the particulars of this joke were overwrought. Maybe it didn't go far enough, and got caught into Poe's Law. Maybe he could've used an even more obviously unacceptable target like blacks or Latinos. But we're not the butt of the joke, Dan Snyder is.

I can't comment on the controversy over trans jokes, as I'm not one myself and therefore not qualified to speak about such things. But regarding this particular incident, some of the statements Suey Park has made over it comes off as opportunistic or hypocritically inflammatory, and the fact that known racists like Michelle Malkin (who have a vested interest in getting Colbert's show cancelled since they are overwhelmingly the target of his satire, not minorities) are spearheading the counterattack, makes me suspect that there are more cynical motives behind the blowup. Notably there was no outcry over his past uses of the Ching Chong Ding Dong character to pointedly satirize people who did the same without even a hint of irony. Or over The Onion calling Snyder a kike over the Redskins name. I don't think the show is in any serious danger, but it does bother me that people would rather attack Colbert for pointing out and mocking racism than Snyder for baldly defending it. How convenient for him.

"Well-intentioned racial humor doesn’t actually do anything to end racism or the Redskins mascot,” Park told me. “That sort of racial humor just makes people who hide under the title of progressivism more comfortable.”

That comes off as inflammatory to you?

And here's another article that actually likes Colbert, but defends Park.

Well if she isn't actually the Jerkass her Twitter and Huffington Post interview gives her the impression of being, she's doing a terrible job at it. Some of the things she's said on her Twitter recently:

Hey really need to crash, but @Stephen At Home—can you please use some satire to force your trolls off me? It's getting old...like you.

BREAKING: Despite "good guy" @Stephen At Home asking fans to stop spewing hate at me—his mentioning of #Cancel Colbert has caused even more.

Wait why didn't you just say "white"? (in response to someone else's comments)

White logic insists racism can't exist unless you prove its existence. Twitter allows for bias to be captured in 140 characters or less.

White logic" doesn't exist because we don't think as a group. Content of character, not color of skin...

Everyone needs to stop appropriating MLK for their own convenience. This is the tenth time today.

And a lot of her older tweets reveal incredibly fucked up stuff. Even I wasn't sure they were real until I googled them for myself and saw that they were.

White gays think they are a special shade that should "get" to be grouped with people of color. Your whiteness is already centered!

Racism is about having structural power/privilege, which all Whites have.

Racism and whiteness go together. Only white people CAN be racist.

Even if she is really somehow truly a Colbertesque master of Poe's Law, unlike him she's not doing a good job of providing context to to make her cause better understood. She flat out refused a golden opportunity to explain herself better when Josh Zepp interviewed her, and had the nerve to blame him for silencing her afterwards when she was the first to shut him down. For someone who purports to be so anti-racism against Asians, she doesn't see anything wrong with Malkin's book supporting racism against Asians. And, irony of ironies, she's far more guilty of abusing the Parody Retcon excuse than Colbert ever has been, yet so many of her supporters on Tumblr, Twitter, and so on seriously think he's genuine and not satirical about the offensive things he says at all (which sounds to me like a textbook case of PC Crusader Hate Dumb, and thus one reason to restore the original entry, which I added a while before #cancelcolbert even happened; in hindsight, perhaps it was prophetic).

While I agree she doesn't deserve the nasty things said to her, she's still using racism to complain about how using racism to complain about other racism is wrong, without a trace of irony. That is absolutely inflammatory and hypocritical. I also find it really, really goddamn hard to sympathize with her when she's right now being racist against other Asians, accusing us of being Category Traitor s for not siding with her.

I really can't stand the "racism = power + privilege, therefore POC (a horrid and erasing term IMO) can't be racist against whites" defense. A lot of people pulling out Judith Katz's definition conveniently forget that the full version also mentions that "people of color can be prejudiced against whites". It's usually SJW who want a get out of jail free card after being called out for being abusive, but Katz's point wasn't to condone minority-on-white bigotry (quite the opposite) but as others have paraphrased, to coin a higher level big-R racism. Unless Park subscribes to Cultural Marxism which I doubt, it's disturbingly ignorant of her to fall back on this excuse.

I mean, I agree with Park's broader point about being upset that it's more OK to pick on Asians than other minorities. I think it's a conversation long coming. And personally I'm not a fan of Ching Chong Ding Dong. Partly because without context it reminds me of my own bullying (though I believe in context it's more than justified) and partly because it's just an Overly Long Gag and not that funny. I don't think it's normalizing anti-Asian racism by the way. Quite the opposite, reminding us that it's shitty and that people who think it should be OK are also shitty.

But defanging satire to the point that it becomes toothless, continuing the ad hominems after the guy you just called an asshole responded to you politely, telling potential allies their opinions are worthless for the crime of being born what they were, attacking her own kind for "betraying" her, and refusing opportunities to shift it into a more constructive and civil conversation are NOT the way to go about it. Especially considering, if she's really as much of a fan as she claims, she's never seen reason to complain about far crueler statements made on the show in the name of satire (excluding trans remarks, which it does look like he's trying to make amends for). To quote the Tumblr entry on this very site:

"The character of "Social Justice Sally" is a parody of this tendency, sending up bloggers who know all the buzzwords and vitriol but lack any real understanding of the actual issues, and 'will hypocritically attack anything that they think is offensive, while letting other blatantly bigoted things slide because it's not their problem, or because they're bigoted themselves'."

It's not even so much about being a fan of the show, I'm just sick and tired of SJW twisting words in the name of equality to justify being shitty to other people. It's not even the first time I've seen this happening to something I like. Just the most newsworthy case. I've been in the Attack On Titan fandom so I've seen how bad people can get because of Political Correctness Gone Mad. I've seen people abuse bad science to justify being shitty to fans of Frozen which especially stings as a scientist-in-training. And I'm sick and tired of shitty people painted as victims and held on a pedestal for having the "right" views by virtue of their skin color or other inborn traits, no matter how awful they can get. Isn't that the total opposite of what real social justice is about?

Honestly, Park's complaints are so weak that it's encouraging casual racism. This is not the right battle. If you want to raise awareness of racism against Asian-Americans, don't do it here where it's just going to make you come off as Politcal Correctness Gone Mad (... because it is). It's going to make people MORE likely to turn a blind eye to genuine examples of this kind of thing.

She's getting rape threats, Colbert showed her face which won't help, and a lot of SJW are minorities with very little power. If you back off defending just because of people angry at the abuse in their lives then that's Skewed Priorities. But I really don't have the spoons for a big long argument, I just didn't think Hate Dumb should be used for hurt people.

First of all, unless you actually suffer from a debilitating illness yourself, please don't appropriate "spoons" terminology like that. If you do then I apologize for doubting you, but as one person who has such a disease pointed out, it's very offensive and ableist (the real kind, not that "stupid is ableist" BS) and one of the most obnoxious things SJW resort to in order to dismiss other people. And just because you belong to a disadvantaged group is NOT an excuse to blindly stereotype and shit all over members of the privileged group for something they have no control over. It's toxic, reactionary, and if these SJW are truly as powerless as they claim, lashing out at any potential allies who have the actual power to correct it only reinforces their own weakness. I certainly don't want people like them fighting for me, especially given their tendency to cannibalize their own.

Suey Park put herself in the spotlight by stating beliefs the vast majority of the country considers fringe, so it's inevitable the response is going to be very negative. Though going as far to threaten rape and death is never acceptable, that's not Colbert's fault. Most trolls probably don't even care about his show in the first place, and he told the ones who do to fuck off anyway.

Besides, a lot of Park's supporters aren't pissed at him for showing her face because it exposed her to trolls. They're pissed because he didn't do enough to mention her. They think he cheated her out of a chance for more public exposure, even though it's possible she'll just turn it into another Wounded Gazelle Gambit. It's a Catch-22 regardless of what he does so that particular point is not a valid reason to criticize him on.

And many of the people defending Suey Park are white themselves, so they're not angry because they experienced racial abuse in their own lives. Meanwhile numerous Asian Americans like me who have, as well as other nonwhite Americans, and actual Asian nationals, think she's just a racist wingnut.

If it's OK to put people getting their feelings hurt because they took the wrong message home in Hate Dumb for other works, I don't see why we can't for at least some of these people (and their type have been around long before #cancelcolbert). Park certainly has more than enough of the vitriol aspect alone to qualify. And I'm seeing Park fans call Colbert a cishomophobe who would go so far as to murder gays under the shield of "satire". A look at the rest of the YMMV page should tell you why that particular accusation is complete BS. If it's been explained to you time after time that the show is satire and you continue to insist that Colbert is sincere (much like anyone who's a fan because they think he's a true conservatives), something is definitely wrong.

At the very least it counts as whatever the opposite of Misaimed Fandom is called, Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch, or Completely Missing The Point. Even after the joke was explained with context, many of the haters who based their impressions off the original tweet refused to accept that they were wrong and moved onto incredibly Ad Hoc new excuses to continue their campaign. While STILL ignoring the Redskins name issue that started it in the first place.

I haven't been able to leave the house properly in five years due to chronic pain.

My goodness but I can hardly work out what's being said with all these words. Alley Oop, please summarise your argument in one paragraph and no more so that the discussion can get back on track and everyone can participate well. We only need to consider whether the Hate Dumb entry is appropriate here; I know the issues behind it are complex but if you would like a wider discussion then take it to the On-Topic Conversation or Live-Action TV forums.

I'll comment on the entry itself later. Thank you for remaining calm and civil, all of you.

People are accusing Colbert of being racist because he used an offensive stereotype to parody a case of real-life racism because they saw a line from a joke taken out of context. And when people have explained the actual circumstances behind it, some of them, rather than admit they were mistaken, continue to be offended because they either:

1) refuse to believe Colbert isn't actually a genuine right-winger, and people defending him by calling the joke or show "satire" are lying. Maybe more of a Misaimed Hatedom than Hate Dumb, though their dogmatic refusal to accept that Colbert doesn't actually mean what he says is willful ignorance.

2) that because he's white he has no right to invoke negative stereotypes of marginalized groups like Asians period. That even if he truly is sympathetic to Asians, N-Word Privileges must be strictly enforced for fear that even mentioning them in public might Trigger listeners, desensitize them to real racism, or is an inherently racist act in and of itself. Some of these people (Park◊ included◊) are guilty of saying nasty and bigoted things to Colbert or supporters, like telling them they should shut the fuck up, don't deserve to have an opinion on anything ever, or just kill themselves because they're white/male/race traitors and so on. Sounds like Hate Dumb to me.

3) or that this time, just this one time, he actually meant the racism. Which, OK, isn't really Hate Dumb, but it's still really stupid and the Ad Hoc-iest of Ad Hocs.

I hope that's concise enough and makes sense.

Telcontar wanted me to stay in, I guess to counter. So, I'll say that their point wasn't that Colbert should get canceled or that nobody can say anything bad ever, their point was that satire can't really be considered satire when it's, as described, just "racism with a wink". Especially when he has a long history of transphobic jokes as well.

There's also the matter of Park getting rape threats (sorry if links aren't allowed) from Colbert defenders, and that he showed her face while knowing that she was getting these comments. To me, dismissing her as Hate Dumb after all that just seems like Flame Bait.

sat·ire ˈsaˌtīr/ noun noun: satire

1. the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues. synonyms: mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature, irony, sarcasm "he has become the subject of satire"

2. play, novel, film, or other work that uses satire. plural noun: satires "a stinging satire on American politics" synonyms: parody, burlesque, caricature, lampoon, skit, spoof, takeoff, sendup "a satire on Canadian politics"

3. a genre of literature characterized by the use of satire.

4. (in Latin literature) a literary miscellany, esp. a poem ridiculing prevalent vices or follies.

The full joke sounds like an unambiguous example of standard satire to me. Again, you don't have to actually like the joke itself, but just because it involves a Once Acceptable Target doesn't make it not satire. Nowhere does the definition require a joke has to be in good taste to be satire, and to insist that Colbert is not a satirist is to plug your fingers into your ears and go lalalalala every time someone tries to tell you otherwise.

His past transphobia is regrettable, yes, but I'm not seeing how it's relevant other than "well he wasn't being satirical there, so he must have meant it here too." Besides some of the jokes mentioned were, like this incident, taken out of context. Your Fave Is Problematic already has a reputation for cherrypicking and Quote Mining. Some of it really is transphobic. But others are actually neutral on trans people, mocking the ignorance and paranoia of the people who hate them, or are sympathetic to them, especially more so as time goes on. Like how he stopped using "retard" after Tim Shriver came on. The only problem I see is shitty wording that violates N-Word Privileges, though since I'm not trans I can't say what is or isn't offensive (I myself didn't learn "tranny" and "shemale" were slurs until last year).

I was just providing the counterpart view because I thought telcontar wanted it. I really don't want to get into an argument again.

I know, I meant "you" in the general sense, not at anyone in particular.