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Tightwire
topic
03:25:43 PM Oct 21st 2014
I feel like since all of these guys in the Examples have a residence in the sub-pages somewhere. On the flipside, this page is HUGE with its endless list.

So, should this be turned into an Index page, without examples?
SeptimusHeap
moderator
12:36:44 AM Oct 22nd 2014
That would be a Trope Repair Shop discussion.
pirate_lizzie
topic
10:46:50 PM Oct 22nd 2013
How do you tell the difference between an Anti-hero and a Hero with faults? It seems to me that the majority of these characters are simply the latter. All heroes should have faults, right? To be a balanced character? So then where's the line drawn between heroes with faults and an anti-hero? I always thought an Anti hero was someone who was on the good side but kinda a jerk. As in kinda a jerk is their main state, not one they just visit (ie, Snape). Or else a hero who fails (Frodo) because they lack a heroic trait (endurance).
David7204
02:31:39 AM Oct 23rd 2013
edited by 69.65.249.116
No, all well-written heroes don't have to have faults. There's a reason we have the Ideal Hero trope and the Mary Sue trope as separate instead of one and the same. They aren't the same.
brrrrr
topic
02:39:31 PM Apr 16th 2013
Why is Batman the example for this page? I know everyone on T Vtropes is into superior japenese anime and whatever, but come on. Batman is not an antihero in ANY way. He abhors guns, and if he was ever written otherwise, it was severely out of character. Choose Deathstroke, or Venom, or Punisher, or someone that's actually an antihero. It's not that hard.
AzureSeas
08:35:00 AM Jun 30th 2013
Check out the reasoning here- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1303051115072373700

Also, "everyone on TVtropes is into superior japenese anime and whatever"? Way to throw an incorrect, aggressively categorical blanket. There are lots of people who enjoy not-anime, thank you very much.
SizzlyBacon
03:43:46 PM Jul 20th 2013
@Azure Seas: Accusations (though accurate to some degree) aside, I'm gonna have to agree with the OP on this one.

Batman is NOT an Anti-Hero character. Maybe some iterations of the character have portrayed him as such, but those such examples are exceptions to his character archetype, not the rule.

There are countless other examples of true Antiheroes within this trope page, any of them will do.
Rynnec
02:33:22 AM Oct 31st 2013
Doesn't change the fact that when most people think of the modern anti-hero, it's usually Batman.
Erivale
11:54:57 AM Nov 10th 2013
Look, just because someone doesn't like guns, it doesn't mean he's not an antihero. He can be excessively brutal and can employ almost villainous tactics. Given how one of his primary tactics is to beat his victims so badly that people will be less likely to turn to crime out of fear of ending up the same way, he's far from the Ideal Hero. He doesn't kill, but beatings to within an inch of his victims' life have always been fair game for him.
Lennik
10:44:29 AM Mar 12th 2014
Not an antihero? He's brutally aggressive in his fights, he's antisocial, he's emotionally stunted, he can be very manipulative and underhanded, he's a lawbreaker, he's often mean, and he's brooding. These are very non-ideally-heroic traits. He's an antihero, and a textbook Byronic Hero, at that.
ArcadesSabboth
topic
03:20:53 PM Mar 19th 2012
edited by ArcadesSabboth
I removed these examples because they're suspicious to me: they're cited to literary critics and historians, yet this page explicitly does not use the same definition of anti-hero as what's standard in literary criticism.

I am not familiar with Genji, and can't evalutate that example due to the lack of description/explanation. But I don't think Odysseus counts. He doesn't have the bitter cynicism or traumatic past or angst I'd expect, and his amorality is probably more the result of Values Dissonance than author intent. He loved his wife, he killed his enemies, he was wily and cunning and strong and dangerous in battle, and he accomplished impressive deeds immortalized in song and myth. That seems to be what Archaic Greeks honestly liked in their heroes. And instead of disregarding society's expectations and ethics, he enforced them: don't steal a man's wife, don't violate the rules of hospitality.
ARaihan
topic
11:26:15 AM Dec 19th 2011
The entry under [1] is very biased towards the Cylons. The context of the show - namely that the Cylons murdered billions of humans, bringing humanity to the brink of extinction and is hunting down the few thousands who remain with extreme prejudice - is missing completely, making it seem like humans hate Cylons for no good reason.

Can someone more versed in the series balance the entry out somewhat? This troper has yet to see the fourth Season and does not know what, if any, factors come into play in that time.
Clay
topic
10:40:35 PM Feb 25th 2011
edited by Clay
Thoughts on why there are few female anti-heroes:

I think that in order to fit the trope well an anti-hero has to exist in a sort of gray area. He's unfit to become a regular hero or at least a redeemed member of society perhaps because of a Dark and Troubled Past but is not a Complete Monster because he never crossed the Moral Event Horizon.

The problem with a female anti-hero is that almost any crime is easily forgivable as long as it doesn't cross the Moral Event Horizon . Think of a male character who is or was a thief, mercenary, or assassin who doesn't kill innocents. Not a Complete Monster but he carries a certain stigma.

Now think of a female character who has the same resume. It's pretty hard to translate that stigma, especially if there's a romantic tie-in with a heroic character. The only way I can see one working off the top of my head is if a female character acts heroically but is Only in It for the Money.
DynamicDragon
topic
05:36:40 PM Feb 14th 2011
Should this page get the subpage treatment? After all, Anti-Villain did
cclosina
04:53:11 PM Jan 6th 2011
ading
03:34:45 PM Feb 20th 2011
edited by ading
Most Knight Templars are villains.
109.224.132.146
topic
05:29:01 AM Dec 17th 2010
Real Life: Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple. Revered by many as the second coming of Christ himself, but when you pay attention to his attitude towards customers (particularly over email), hear what he's like as a boss and observe the spiteful war mongering with any company who disagrees with him and he quickly becomes apparent as a bit of an a-hole.
cclospina
topic
08:56:12 AM Dec 3rd 2010
Removed to Light, Because he is Villain Protagonist.
Camacan
moderator
topic
10:00:49 PM Nov 19th 2010
edited by Camacan
A sympathetic treatment doesn't make a villainous character a hero.
Camacan
moderator
topic
10:00:05 PM Nov 19th 2010
Without any heroic character Craig does not appear to be an example. Bad behaviour or being disagreeable is not enough for this trope.

  • Craig from South Park. He is implied to have bad behaviour, and is referred to as "the biggest trouble-maker" in his class by Eric Cartman. Craig seems to be one of the most stoic, gloomiest kids from his class, having a darker personality than the rest of the characters, being pragmatic, monotone and ironic. In the early episodes he was indifferent to everyone, constantly flipping them off. In the latter episodes, he is the leader of a gang who are social rivals with Stan, Kyle, Cartman and Kenny. Cartman frequently refers to the gang as "Craig and those guys".
    • His assertiveness could also lead to bullying, because, when kids from their class bullied someone, Craig was usually the first who "gave the attack".
Camacan
moderator
topic
09:58:58 PM Nov 19th 2010
As written this is not an example — Richard is a Heroic Sociopath. If replacing give specific details for how Richard has become an Anti Hero over time.

  • Richard of Looking for Group is another example of the Anti Hero, though his motives for helping the main hero seem to be out of pure boredom rather than anything else.
    • Recent story development suggest some higher plan.
    • More Heroic Sociopath than Anti Hero... and sometimes just plain Sociopath.
ading
03:14:44 PM Mar 9th 2011
Heroic Sociopath is a very extreme type of Anti-Hero.
Camacan
moderator
topic
09:56:53 PM Nov 19th 2010
The characters appear not to be examples: most are not heroic, the heroic character is apparently a straight hero.
  • 8-Bit Theater's main characters are anti-heroes to the point that "Designated Heroes" doesn't even begin to describe them.
    • I'd say Fighter is probably more a hero than an anti-hero in that he wants to be a hero and seems to succeed in being a nice, good, righteous guy when he attempts to. However, his stupidity causes him to put up with pure evil Black Mage, amorally greedy Thief and morally detached Red Mage.
      • Except Fighter, they're all really just pure evil. A requirement of being an anti-hero is doing heroic things, which the 8-bit cast hasn't done so far.

LordSeth
topic
12:37:11 PM Oct 2nd 2010
A bunch of links to this page as well as this page itself talk about how there are different types ("Type III, Type IV") but they aren't here. Were they removed? If so, why, and should they possibly be brought back?
Zenith
07:37:24 PM Oct 23rd 2010
The types actually refer to the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes. If you see something like that without a pothole, you should probably link it to that.
NorthernDruid
10:20:10 AM Oct 3rd 2011
edited by NorthernDruid
Should we perhaps list the types here? Since it seems relevant and they're already mentioned, just not listed.
Game_Fan
topic
10:23:35 PM May 8th 2010
Should be perhaps mention that in literary criticism this isn't what Anti-Hero means at all?
dogboner
04:53:12 PM May 14th 2011
Totally agreed. It was mentioned previously, but someone felt the need to remove it. It is a sadness.
Brick3621
03:20:54 PM May 17th 2011
edited by Brick3621
The problem is that the main article only describes Types III to V of the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes. The non-TV Tropes-and-generally-accepted-by-most-academic-sources-and-authorities-on-literature definition of antihero is "a protagonist with traits contrary to the archetypical hero." The article needs to be less specific. Some Troper should jump at the call to edit this article. Somebody should... Oh yeah, never mind. Be right back.
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