Hmm. Do you think we could maybe make a "Pragmatic Warfare" YKTTW, kinda like the link Poptard put, with this as one of the examples?

I was the editor who changed it to Pragmatic Villainy, and I think that trope fits the closest. He's refraining from gaining a complete victory over the Empire, by eliminating both the heads of Skyrim and the greater Empire in one swoop, because he's reluctant to turn Skyrim's war for it's independence to a complete war of 5 holds vs the entire Empire. Ulfric is a villain, at least for Imperial-aligned characters.

@fox: That could be an option.

With what we have now, perhaps Genre Savvy? Not sure how accurate that would be, since as pointed out it's hard to fit, but that's my best guess.

@Poptard: That is true, and that was my first thought. But then you have to consider that the only way to get to that point is to decide that Ulfric is the good guy. So, depending on which side you choose, either it doesn't happen, or he's not a villain.

Genre Savvy seems like the best bet, since pragmatism can fit into that category.

Genre Savvy isn't "Pragmatism", that's Trope Decay.

"A Genre Savvy character doesn't necessarily know they're in a story, but they do know of stories like their own and what worked in them and what didn't" That's Genre Savvy. And this wouldn't be an example. Ulfric is not holding back because "Rebel leaders always make that fatal mistake" or something. He's just doing it out of pragmatism.

Perhaps, maybe, something completely out of left field. What about trying to Invoke The Revolution Will Not Be Villified by willingly trying not to antagonize the Empire too much, as he wants to appear as a hero freeing Skyrim from a corrupt Empire rather than someone out to destroy the Empire. If he appears as the underdog, there wouldn't be enough public support in the Empire to justify an invasion to re-take Skyrim, but if he murdered the King of the whole Empire instead of just some king in a backwater province, he'd need to wrestle with an angry Empire.

... That is not what The Revolution Will Not Be Villified is. The Revolution Will Not Be Villified is that in a work a rebellion is always presented as 100% heroic. They don't do massacres. They don't do underhanded tactics. They are squeaky clean. The Stormcloaks aren't an example as the game deliberately lets you choose how you see them and gives you mixed accounts. And the Empire is already hostile to them, and already accuses them of atrocities. Even as an attempt to Invoke the trope it doesn't work, since Ulfric knows and acknowledges his rebellion is vilified by the Empire.

At this point watching the list of Square Peg Round Trope attempts to fit this as an example of something is getting sort of desperate.

So we make a Square Trope. I'll see if I can start a Pragmatic Warfare YKTTW.

That's it. Again, I think we need a lockdown - a Season Unending. I'm tired of this. It's gone on for too long.

IIRC, Either Hadvar or Tullius mentions it. Nit sure though.

You said it yourself, they aren't a major player. Just being connected to someone important's backstory doesn't necesitate the movemenet of an entire faction to a page they don't belong on.

From what I can find, it appears that the chef in the Blue palace says something like, "Everyone knows Tullius holds the real power in Solitude, Elisif is just a puppet".

Yeah, I'm remembering some insinuations from Erikur about it too... about how he has "every confidence in General Tullius".

In any case... Drake, THANK you for cleaning up all the pro-Stormcloak natter/rationalizations/justifying edits.

No problem. I'm pro-Imperial too, and while I'm trying hard (and IMO am succeeding) in keeping my bias out of the editing window, the Stormcloaks had way too much natter going on to explain away how justified they are in their stances.

Okay, I think I found it... the foot locker at his bed in Castle Dour? It can *potentially* spit out a randomized Talos amulet because a nested leveled item list structure contains the all-encompassing religious amulet list. Emphasis on "potentially". Part of leveled item lists' purpose is to randomize loot (as well as putting out level-appropriate gear and also providing a one-stop item-drop into actors to fill out their inventory when developing).

With the establishment that it can appear completely randomly, can all this statement that he's a closet Talos worshipper really be considered true? Are there any places associated with ownership by General Tullius personally that can reliably indicate this? Not trying to heap onto the anti-Imperial sentiment running rampant on this page (I'm pretty pro-Imperial), but facts are facts...

If it's random, then no, it can't be said to be canonical.

Despite a lot of arguing going on, I haven't seen much edit warring. Maybe if there were, we could just ask a moderator to send a few warnings to some of the more vocal editors. Can we do that?

Sure, we can just do that. For now. The last thing I want is for the war to completely reach this page. I'm just tired of all the Kormification...

Such as?

It's inevitable this will happen, seeing as the game divides the two sides (and the players) which each taking a poor view of the other. Some troper might be biased to one side, the others to the opposite. the best we can do is try to remain as neutral as possible. If there's one entry that is blatantly pro-imperial or pro-stormcloak, post it here and we'll review it, and possibly clean it up.

Sometimes the whole page comes across as a proxy for real-life... uhh... well, real-life trouble, is all I thnk can be said on a trope's discussion page. I looked at the message boRds for, let us say, certain real-life organizations and they use the exact same rhetoric.

Unless if you find specific examples, there's not much that can be done. Also, those parties aren't the only ones who can use rhetoric; demonizing your opponents and their stance while exaggerating your own position and underplaying your faults are used by all people who are involved in politics. If I'm correct in assuming you're talking abut political boards, remember that the argument for Skyrim's independence is just as much political as it is cultural, so it's inevitable some of the same rhetoric would slip its way in.

Your'e kind of right, there is a lot of bias, pro-Stormcloak in one paragraph and pro-Legion in the next, or vice versa. Perhaps some editing is needed.

Honestly this goes for the entire civil war article. There are a lot of positive trope for one person and then there is a negative trope for that same person. The only way this can even be a neutral section is if a. Someone who is neutral to the civil war does it or b. Bethseda releases a DLC that can somehow cause the civil war to become moot. One thing for sure is that there needs to be a clean-up on this page.

The "rambling fool" comment is a huge exaggeration. Only the shopkeeper in Bits and Pieces says that. Almost everyone else speaks highly of Torygg, or remembers him well.

The problem is that every week, a pack of pro-Stormcloak editors slip in justifying edits within blocks of text to contradict previous statements within that paragraph. The result is schizophrenic.

Most of the time, I've been trying to make the gigantic lists of justifying edits and contradictory sub-comments into more compact and neutral passages. It's a never ending task because every cleanup brings in another wave of Stormcloak whitewashing. Imperial whitewashing seems less prominent, if still present.

If the history logs are anything to go by, it's mostly one guy doing all the Stormcloak whitewashing. Someone should send a mod to politely ask him to stop.

I agree, though it's less of him not fitting the personality than it is he has few opportunities to perform much actions to qualify him. All he does is ask the Dragonborn to retrieve a helmet, thank him when he does so, and maybe make him a thane later. He also laments how Winterhold is pretty crappy and blames the college. That's good and also being aware of what's going on, but not enough for this trope.

Very well, also going to clean up the rest of the Jarl section, removing any more Reasonable Authority Figure entries unless they either help the Dragonborn directly (The Jarls of Hjallmarch) or they had the right reaction over something extraordinary (Elisf).