It's a Gundam thread!

Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say something to that effect about introducing Lalah earlier, actually. At least she isn't as completely useless as Chalia Bull, who I really do not see the point in because he dies in like the episode he's introduced. Was he intended to be in the part of the series that got cut?

Like I said before; if you view early UC as sort of Amuro's arc, I would've liked to see Zeta be based around him and Char becoming allies and really build up to the conclusion in CCA, which IMO could really have afforded to have been longer.

edited 22nd Mar '12 6:41:51 PM by Scherzo09

Challia Bull was indeed supposed to have had a longer arc. I might add that originally, Amuro wasn't even supposed to kill Lalah—another Zeon Newtype was supposed to kill her for being too soft on the enemy (and Amuro killed Gihren, and Kycilia died earlier, and Char stayed behind as A Baoa Qu collapsed, etc., etc.) Again, I have no problem with believing that Amuro and Lalah felt a connection. Neither of them has ever met another powerful Newtype before. When they did run into each other that one time, they made a mental link, and felt a closeness that they hadn't with anyone else. That's fine. But they weren't in love. To do that, they would have had to, as you and I have both said, bring her in earlier. And I would have been down with that. It would have been interesting, and I'm saying that as somebody who hates Star-Crossed Lovers plots.

Before watchng Zeta I would have said Amuro and Char genuinely becoming friends would have been stupid, but ya know what? It would not have been a worse use of the two of them. Zeta's new characters are fine. It's treatment of the older ones leaves a lot to be desired.

I don't mean that Amuro and Char would suddenly become best buds, but it would've been cool to see them develop together, come to have respect for one another, and maybe become actual friends near the end before Char relapses. I mean its like you said, Amuro really doesn't have much reason to respect or like Char at the onset; I think there could've been potential for the stuff that is implied by CCA but isn't actually there. Kind of a fanfiction idea cooking in my head now.

I think it would have been best to put them in separate units (which, to give credit where it's due, is what Zeta more or less does), but operating in the same area. That way you wouldn't have them constantly in one another's faces (or worse yet, with one of them commanding the other), but close enough that a mutual respect could be developed.

Are you a decent fanfic writer? Because if you are and you do write that fic, send me the link. You might want to watch one or two episodes of Zeta before you do (all of them are on You Tube in English (except episode 11); it's great), if only to get a feel for what the conflict with the Titans looks like. Also some of the Zeta original characters (Emma Sheen, Captain Henken, and yes, Kamille) would be worth including. So would most of the villains (Yazan Gable, Bask Om, Scirocco et al)

I am just realising something—my Zeta experience is rapidly turning into a repeat of my Wing experience. There are enough good things about the show, that I'm spending all my time trying to figure out how it could be rewritten to remove the bad.

edited 22nd Mar '12 7:51:46 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I was thinking about having Kamille, but he'd only be a supporting character. I think having Char and Amuro being Squad leaders would work; it really wouldn't make sense wasting their experience and leadership skills by stuffing them in the same unit.

I actually been having an idea for a CCA rewrite for a while, but I think a Zeta one would be interesting too, and be good to do first. I'd also resolve the First Neo Zeon stuff in the same arc too instead of doing a ZZ thing.

Kamille would make a good subordinate for one of them (especially given that in rank at least, he is Char's subordinate throughout Zeta). He even comes with his own ready made rival in Jerid (who isn't big enough as a character to really threaten Char or Amuro in anything beyond the purely physical but would make a very good archenemy for a young supporting character). If you do wrap up Neo-Zeon I there, would you include Judau from ZZ or not? Honestly, I would have liked to see he and Kamille both show up in CCA. UC's three Ace Pilots kicking ass together? Would have been sweet.

EDIT: One thing that I think gets lost in Zeta in favour of "we oppose The Federation because we're from SPACE!" is the fact that Amuro, Kai, Hayato, Sayla, and the rest of the White Base crew helped to create the problems in the colonies. They stomped Zeon flat. They overran the colonies. They effectively helped put Bask and the rest of the Titans in power. To me at least, that would be a far better explanation for why they're involved in the AEUG—to fix a situation they helped make. It's something Zeta barely touches on, and yet it seems to me to be at the core of their involvement.

PS-Would you have the eventual Amuro/Char falling out happen during or after Zeta?

edited 22nd Mar '12 7:54:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Someone would have to gimme the Cliff Notes version of ZZ because I don't really have any intention of watching it. Whereas with Zeta, I think its at least worth checking out.

I'm thinking I still want to have Amuro on Sabbatical in Wyoming at the beginning, was thinking his relationship Sayla fell through at some point before. Also pretty sure she'd be on the Argama. You think I should bring Kai and Hayato back? As for Frau Bow... I don't think she or the kids need to reappear.

In their defense, its really the events of Stardust Memory that set this off, not specifically the White Base's actions.

The fallout would necessarily be in Zeta; I want to avoid the sudden character whiplash the original series had.

edited 22nd Mar '12 8:16:51 PM by Scherzo09

Given the point at which the original MSG ends, it's possible there never was a relationship to begin with. From the looks of things in Zeta most of the kids from the White Base were so messed up from what happened with the One Year War that they all went their separate ways. Kai, Hayato, Amuro, Mirai, Bright, Frau, and Sayla have, from what I can gather in Zeta, not seen one another in roughly seven years.

Kai and Hayato coming back is actually one of the good things that happened in Zeta even with the constant shilling of Char. Kai basically becomes the UC's James Bond, while Hayato, despite being like 50 pounds overweight, is actually a pretty cool guy (and a far cry from the whiny resenter he was in MSG). Hayato actually runs Karaba, the Earth-based equivalent of the AEUG and Kai is one of his top intelligence guys.

I can definitely see Sayla either being on the Argama or joining up with it afterwards. I rather doubt she and Char have talked to one another at all though, so you might want to keep that in mind (Char's a member of the Argama crew from the start). I assume you'd be planning to have her and Amuro get together/back together (depending on which tack you took?)?

As for the kids...I actually thinks it's sad the way they turned out. There could have been some potential there, seeing how they've grown up since MSG. Instead we only have Katz to deal with and he's an awful, awful pain in the ass (though he does get points in my book for threatening Char with a gun at one point. Even if the safety was on.) If you think you can reinvent them as likeable characters that'd be neat, otherwise your instinct to leave them out would probably be best.

I can't seem to find you a decent synopsis of ZZ. Some characters who probably are worth keeping around are Judau, Roux, and some of the other kids in their group. On the villainous sides the two standouts are (for me) Haman Khan (of course) and Glemmy Toto (who may or may not be the clone/bastard son of Gihren Zabi).

If you're planning to watch Zeta enjoy it and don't let my criticism prevent you from enjoying it (chances are you'll probably get Critical Backlash instead after hearing me whine so much). It is a good show despite its flaws, and it's worth a watch.

EDIT: So, Four...I'm supposed to feel bad for this girl? She's selfish, whiny, and is willing to murder god knows how many people in order to get her memory back. Wow. I'm going to say it. I know that people will flip out on me, but I'm going to say it—Destiny did this plotline better. I could feel bad for Stella. She had the mentality of a five year old. She still needed to be put down like the rabid animal she was, but I could feel sorry for her. And I understand where Shinn's desire to protect her comes from. The guy's got a Big Brother Complex you could run the Destroy over. It's not a healthy relationship, or the true love that shippers will claim it is, but with regards to both their psychological states it makes sense.

Four and Kamille though, where in the Hell did this come from? I mean, I get why it's popular. The scenes with the two of them are cutesy, and it's nice to see Kamille acting like an unambiguously Nice Guy. I get that. But the actual relationship makes no damn sense. Why do they take an interest in each other? Why are they suddenly in love? Why do ignore the fact that they're on opposite sides until they find out which specific machine the other flies? And why, in the name of all that is holy, is Kamille so determined to save a girl who tells him that he and the entire city of Hong Kong can bugger off and die so she can get her memory back? God Kamille, you know how to pick'em.

PS: One thing I will say—I like that they have Amuro see where this is going, and reference his relationship with Lalah. That was a nice touch. In fact, the growing friendship between the two of them is one of the highlights of the series for me.

EDIT: RIP Captain Ben Wooder. You died as you lived: completely out of your gourd. Seriously, trying to ram the Tsudori into the Audhumla? Shooting Four in the back? Firing at his own ship to try and get Amuro and Kamille? For a Mauve Shirt Elite Mook Smug Snake the man was awesome.

edited 23rd Mar '12 7:34:02 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Wooder may've been a Smug Snake, but he entered the halls of Villainous Valour as soon as he decided to personally fly the freakin' Psyco Gundam into battle. Dude had stones.

Yeah, the man was not one to let little things like logic, or not being a Newtype stop him from getting the job done.

EDIT: Wooder now has an entry on the Character Sheet and Villainous Valour. I figure a Mauve Shirt that memorable deserves it.

EDIT: Oh thank god, I can finally make an entirely positive post. There is nothing wrong with episode 22. Nothing whatsoever. Fa does something stupid, but for totally understandable reasons, Scirocco establishes himself as the Creepy Awesome SOB we all expected him to be (so far he's living up to his hype; I'm impressed), Jerid's combat experience finally pays off, an obnoxious Newtype bites the dust, Emma and Henken get some Ship Tease and Kamille gets some Character Development. I do not have a single complaint.

EDIT: Good riddance Commodore Blex. Talk about a one-note character. The show continues to improve.

edited 23rd Mar '12 10:25:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I dunno if Sayla and Amuro would hook up. I think I'd like to acknowledge that they had a 'fling' during the timespan of MSG that may have carried on a little bit afterwards, but I don't think I'd have them hook up. Was actually thinking of adding Chan in and developing her as a character so she isn't just 'there' in CCA. Was thinking she'd be from the same school as Kamille.

I'll keep Hayato as a rebel; but I just don't see him as a rebel leader. Anti-EF rebels on Earth seem to me to be something that has existed for a long time but since the Titans have better coordinated themselves. I can see him as like a section leader of a cell, but not as an overall leader. For Kai I'm kinda thinking he might have become an Anaheim employee after the OYW before joining the Argama, but if he has an important role in the show I'd like to know what that is.

As for what causes Char to relapse, its Neo-Zeon's entry into the war, which also causes the Spacenoid Advocacy faction to splinter into those who want Spacenoid Advocacy within the context of the EF and those who want the Zeonist ideal of sovereign nations in space. This creates a lot of stress onboard the Argama.

edited 24th Mar '12 3:42:50 PM by Scherzo09

Char never really "relapsed" because he never really changed his tune. His priorities are the same from MSG to CCA. In no particular order, he wants to a) avenge his father, b) support the nation of Zeon, c) fulfill his father's ideal of everyone moving to space and becoming a Newtype, d) ???, e) profit.

He's only a good guy in Zeta because all the other good guys happen to be fighting the Federation at that point too. You'll notice that while everyone else denounces Zeon as well as the Titans for the terrible things they did, Char always makes a point to single out the Zabis rather than Zeon as a whole.

edited 24th Mar '12 10:17:25 PM by NativeJovian

Well I'm talking for my rewrite of Zeta that would lead into my rewrite of CCA.

And well he is right, it was the Zabis doing, not Zeon's. And like Ambar said, the crew of the Argama sound like they actually kind of buy into Zeon's spacenoid philosophy.

edited 24th Mar '12 10:58:27 PM by Scherzo09

I never really had an issue with Hayato as a rebel leader, though thinking about it now, that is rather odd. I think I was just willing to let it slide because I hated him in MSG so much that any improvement was good in my book.

Kai doesn't play a major role in Zeta but he does play a rather cool one as a reporter-turned-spy and Karaba intelligence agent. Whether it's beating up soldiers and stealing their guns, or breaking into a Titans base, the man has become a grade-A badass without the mobile suit.

I confess I've always liked the Amuro/Sayla ship, but hey, your fic, not mine. Part of it was just because it's a pretty even pairing—they're both strong personalities, neither one outranks the other, and they were effectively partners for a lot of the One Year War. That's the kind of thing I try to base relationships on when I write and it's probably a big part of why it appeals to me.

You know, I'd honestly forgotten Chan existed. That's how much of a nonentity she was. Even now, thinking about it, I honestly can't remember anything about her beyond "hooks up with Amuro." If you wanna give her a personality I'm down with that.

Seems like a good way to do the split. Anyone else going to jump ship with Char?

edited 25th Mar '12 10:17:07 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

One thing I particularly liked about 0079 was the sympathetic, badass monster-of-the-week mooks who cropped up here and there. Like the two Dopp pilots who almost wrecked the White Base's battle strategy by going back to help a refugee, or the recon squad who almost destroyed the Gundam with time-bombs and hover-bikes, and then had the brass balls to disguise themselves, drive up, and congratulate Amuro for a job well done when he got rid of all their explosives in time.

He's actually got his own spinoff manga now.

It's not that I don't think he could be a good leader; it just stretches credulity for him to be the supreme commander of all Earth rebels. Reporter for Kai works; but where does he live ( I will end up watching Zeta soon regardless). I guess I'll make Sayla work for Anaheim, want someone on the Argama to have contact with them and it'd be nice for that one to be important. Would explain why she's there too.

I think Sayla and Amuro can still have a meaningful relationship, but I'd kinda like to build Chan up because she would be in Rondo Bell in CCA era stuff while Sayla would not be. And it'd be nice to salvage a character.

I don't know much about the new characters from Zeta, but I have some general character sketches of what I want to do with some of them. This might get some groans from some people, but I honestly want to make Bask Om be like General Shepherd from Modern Warfare; extremely callous and pragmatic, and does what he sees necessary for the continuing security of the Earth Federation even if it means the deaths of thousands or even millions of lives. That's the reason he orchestrates everything he does, because he sincerely believes he's making the Earth Sphere more secure in the long run. As for Scirocco, was thinking, from what I've heard, that he's an amoral douchebag who sees the EF Civil War and Neo Zeon War as "good for business" and his goal is to just keep the conflict going as long as possible as long as it increases the demand for H3.

Scirocco's goal in the show seems (emphasis on seems) to be to exploit the war in order to gain control of the EF for himself. As far as Bask goes, he never gets a lot of characterisation behind being a rabid, colonist hating thug. It's too bad, because the backstory some of the side materials give him (being a Shell-Shocked Veteran who was tortured in a Zeon POW camp for most of the One Year War) could have given him some depth. "Pragmatic and callous" is not a bad description of him though. He hates the colonists, but he's not a ranting loon about it, at least not in the early episodes.

With Scirocco I kinda want to set up Jupiter as the main driving antagonist of most Late UC stuff; such as Cosmo Babylonia, the Crossbone Vanguard, the Zanscare Empire, et cetera. And I think their goal in general is to keep the people of the Earth Sphere dependent on Jupiter's H3 supplies. And to that end they intervene in conflicts within the Earth Sphere with the intent to damage or fracture any hegemony there, often times using spacenoid Independence or supremacy proxies. So I see Scirocco as less of a conqueror and more of a warmonger, being gleefully complicit in the arming of multiple sides of the wars.

HD Gundam SEED is looking pretty good.

Gundam SEED DESTINY like it's predecessor had too many stupid clipshows and the writing was a crapload more garbage than SEED's (which had few flaws while DESTINY had tons).

00 in my mind is going down as the show with the best mech battles.

@Ambar: Also wondering what Mobile Suits I should have in the story. I want to keep it pretty managable, so I don't want more than say 6 different models of M Ses per side. I'm also on the fence with keeping the Zeke aesthetic for the Titans; on one hand its very distinctive of them, the Hizacks and all, but on the otherhand it just feels out of place for them to take on Zeon's aesthetic.

The Zeon aesthetic was strange. It works well for the suits designed by Scirocco (who has nothing for or against Zeon) but it is definitely odd for the Titans, and becomes even more so if you're intending to play Jamitov and Bask's hatred of Zeon straight.

I assume you're referring to generic models and are planning to keep the various unique models (a la The O, the Messala, and the Pallas Athene).

I'd need more information on them first.

The PMX-000 Messala is Scirocco's original ride. It's a transformable mobile suit/mobile armour combo that carries the punch of a small warship. It's later flown by two of Scirocco's henchwomen.

Gundam wiki article: http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/PMX-000_Messala

The PMX-001 Pallas Athene was built by Scirocco for Reccoa, post defection.

Gundam wiki article: http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/PMX-001_Palace_Athene

The PMX-003 The O (stupid name, I know) is Scirocco's final ride, and a pretty iconic suit. Designed to operate in a Jovian gravity well, it's a heavily armoured, quadwielding beast that becomes a Lightning Bruiser in Earth's gravity or space. It's also a nice change from the usual Final Boss suits, since it lacks Attack Drones and their ilk. Perhaps more importantly, The O is the machine that people think of when they think "Paptimus Scirocco".

Gundam wiki article: http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/PMX-003_The_O

There's also the PMX-002 which was flown by Sarah up until her death. Scirocco has a thing for giving his henchwomen personalised suits.

EDIT: Haman Khan's AMX-004 Qubeley is also worth keeping around. It is to her as The O is to Scirocco and it's pretty hard to imagine her without it.

Gundam wiki article: http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/AMX-004_Qubeley

edited 25th Mar '12 7:24:54 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'm talking more rank and file M Ses, I think I'd keep signature M Ses for the guys, for the most part. I think I'd probably give Amuro Zeta Gundam though, but of course the means about how they get it would be different.

Still on the fence about keeping stuff like Hizacks. I'm fine with them still existing, being manufactured for deployment with the Republican Gaurd of Zeon, but I kinda like the idea of the Spacenoid Advocacy Front being a mix of defected Feddie M Ses and surplus Zeke hardware, plus a handful of new stuff provided by Anaheim; versus a more unified Feddie aesthetic for the Titans. Thinking of maybe making some new grunt mobile suits for the Titans, tentatively calling it a 'Gunzack'; overall modeled off of the GM II but with some Zeke aesthetics thrown in, like the monoeye.

Friend who's helping me on this might redesign the Qubeley a little.

edited 25th Mar '12 8:07:02 PM by Scherzo09

The Titans having a unified aesthetic makes sense. They're a government organisation. Logically speaking, they shouldn't need a wide variety of suits.

As regards the Zeta it is designed off of Kamille's designs and is pretty closely linked to him. Depending on how highly you want your fic read, you'll want to be careful with that.

What is it about the Quebeley that you and your friend thought needed redesigning? If there's one that I would've thought needed tweaking it's The O, not because it's a bad suit or anything, but because, well, it has arms coming out of the crotch. I guess we all know what was on Scirocco's mind. I really like the multiarmed aspect of The O, and overall it's one of my favourite machines from Zeta, both for its badassery and the sheer difference of it from a lot of Gundam fare, but jeez. Couldn't they have put the extra arms somewhere else?