Pokémon anime

It could be a rushed evolution like Snorunt to Glalie. Ash caught Snorunt after the 7th Gym in Hoenn, and it evolved to Glalie before the league. I think Ash only had Snorunt for maybe 15 eps tops before it evolves.

Snorut wasn't a newborn and might have been close to evolving anyway. Noibat is way too young to evolve anytime soon.

Unless they want to pull a Bayleef and have it be overy-affectionate despite it's large size.

Speaking of, I'd like to see Bayleef return and evolve in the future. I never understood why the writers never went all the way with Bayleef in Johto.

edited 28th Aug '15 10:39:56 AM by Lionheart0

Talonflame would be a gamebreaker if it had the abiliy that makes it so near-broken in the metagame, Gale Wings. Ash's has regular old Flame Body (which helped in hatching Noibat).

Looking back, Pokemon Hunter J was a real bitch. It's no wonder she's earned herself the distinction of being heavily implied to have been killed off.

How would Gale Wings even work in a non-game environment? Just give you Super-Speed whenever you use a Flying move?

Indeed.

Funny thing is, I always figured Ash would eventually call up his strongest mons to fight her (as his Sinnoh group was not powerful enough), but instead the writers had her get defeated without him ever getting a victory over her, as though they didn't think he could.

I mean, yeah, she stomped Gary (who's as good as Ash if you re-call, or maybe a little weaker), and I'm pretty sure he did have some powerful mons with him, but still, why deny him the chance to actually take her down in a straight up battle.

Ash never beat ANY evildoer in a straight-up battle besides Team Rocket.

My fucking point exactly!

Why isn't he allowed to show he can win against villains beyond Jessie And James (and Butch and Cassidy when they appear sometimes)?

What's the deal? He's a legitimately powerful trainer himself now, even if they continually Ass Pull reasons for him to lose the league. He should be allowed to beat them!

It should be a tough battle mind you, but still.

Hell, no one was actually able to beat J! She completely stomped Gary, and she managed to beat Brandon as well (though that was through cheating). I like that they gave us a genuinely evil villain, and a strong one at that, but they had her just utterly destroy everyone, when there should have been people strong enough to give her pause, ruthlessness or not.

It would have been nice to see her get shown up at least once.

I feel the same way! Though she did have trouble against the Regis, I think.

As for the rest of your question, it's a good one, but one I don't know the answer to XD

Post 8492: Yeah, it is good. Maybe it outshines mine?

Just watched that Video finally.....

Good choice for Mulan truthfully.

I don't think Ash has ever battled any of the evil team leaders, he didn't even battle Giovanni all the way till BW!

He never battled Maxie or Archie, he never battled Cyrus, etc. I guess its because the evil team leaders never directly challenge Ash to a battle.

He battled Giovanni in Best Wishes? When?

Then again, even now, with greater involvement of the teams, the Writers have always been reluctant to actually let Ash go near their plots unless it's directly from the game (something that was totally abandoned in Best Wishes as well until later on, and X and Y is creating a whole separate arc for Team Flare), it's just further proof that they don't think Ash stands a chance against these guys at all.

It was for 38 seconds, shorter than their battle in Pokémon Live!. Persian used Power Gem, OHKOIng Pikachu and Ash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLi2m2cXYfI

edited 29th Aug '15 1:42:43 PM by lalalei2001

Wow. That was disappointing.

Not just because he lost (I think he shouldn't beat a villain as strong as Giovanni on the first go) but because it took fifteen years for it to happen, and he loses in one hit.

Ash really is as strong as the writers want him to be, and against real villains, he's never gonna be strong enough, no matter how many leagues he competes in (and they won't let him win a league either).

This is bullshit.

I think we can ascribe that last in part to the writers' (or the executives', take your pick) decision to keep Ash as the lead throughout the various generations. After all, we can't have Ash be Superman (or, as the case may be, an all-Pokemon version of Aquaman) and solve all of the world's problems. POST-REPLY-EDIT: Otherwise, the series would suffer Serial Escalation.

On the other hand, he was instrumental in stopping Cyrus, Giovanni in "Tempest", and Ghetsis. The problem in all of those cases is that all Ash did was free up the Legendary of the arc to do their thing; kind of like in most of the movies. I have a feeling that that's probably intentional: the big problems aren't supposed to be solved by force EDIT: on a kid's show.

Still, preventing situations from being resolved such prevent being able to show that Right Makes Might. I'm hoping that we have a final climactic battle against Lysandre over the Giant Rock and/or against the Malamar so that we can break this concept of The Meddling Kids Are Useless. Ash has been around for long enough for him EDIT: that he actually should have the skills, tactics, and diplomatic acumen to avert that. (He wouldn't have had them back in Kanto.)

EDIT: One more thing to bring this back full circle: It looks like J and Pikachu have something in common: they both tied against a Legendary.

edited 30th Aug '15 5:50:25 AM by DonaldthePotholer

For what it's worth, Ash has beaten a few legendaries without assistance (Articuno and Regice come to mind. Same thing for Moltres, I assume?)

Nope on the last one.

That's different. Said Legendaries were battled under League-style conditions and under the command of a Trainer. A Frontier Brain, true, but the point is: said Brain wasn't trying to Take Over the World.

The point of discussion isn't why Ash can't beat Legendaries; it's why Ash can't beat (the in-game) villains, at least not directly. Yes, he has brought down one-shot Filler Villains, but those were one-shot and filler; and IIRC, he only started to do so in Kalos. But once they have an actual arc, and especially if they're actual in-game villains, Ash himself Can't Catch Up and can only hope to force a draw. And the Terrible Trio don't count, they have Joker Immunity and are Canon Foreigners who only appeared in Recursive Adaptations.

And people wonder why I think so lowly of Ash

The fuck are you guys on?

Legendaries in anime =/= games. In the anime they are treated as broken shit. Hell that Articuno in BF felt like it was holding back because it was an inducted battle. This is the only place I see people having problems with this episode.

Also why are people treating Ash the same, especially when there's this black hole that is BW?

This is why I feel like anime discussions, especially XY, is lost in this place. You got a bunch of people assuming stuff, have already given expectations, and have plenty of odd shit. I still remember that YMMV entry in the Hoopa movie to which I shake my head.

Because you never really watch the show and assume a lot from second-hand knowledge? It's sad coming from a Digimon fan (then again, as a Xros Wars and Savers fan, I know the stupidity the fanbase of the older series likes to blather on about).

edited 30th Aug '15 10:35:48 AM by Ookamikun

Again the writers usually never have the villain team leaders even battle Ash. Maxie/Archie, Cyrus, etc. never challenged Ash to a battle. I don't think they even owned any Pokemon in the anime.

I do wish Giovanni had a bigger role in the anime though, particularly back in Johto. I suppose the reason Giovanni got very little screentime in AG and DP is because TR wasn't relevant in the games at the time so they had no reason to show him.

I do assume that if the show ever does end there will be some kind of final Giovanni/TR confrontation just to disband the organization and give Jessie/James/Meowth some closure.

Aside from Weirdguy's tangent, Legendaries are not the focus of today's discussion.

The focus of today's discussion are why Ash can't seem to do anything against human villains. He hasn't really been able to beat a human villain directly either in the Films or the Anime proper (regardless of canon status) (apart from JJ&M, who have Joker Immunity anyway, and one-shot Filler Villains); in most of the other cases, Ash has had to rely on Legendaries to do the actual work.

Then again, from what I recall, most of the one-shot villains he was able to take down were in Kalos, so maybe your post makes the point that "past performance is not indicative..." and that we will see Ash lay the beatdown on Team Flare and ot the rogue Malamar himself; or at the very least be a significant help to Diantha in doing so.

EDIT: I think that's what they tried to do with "Operation Tempest". Sadly, it didn't stick and the best we can hope for now is either a Mêlée à Trois^note actually Quatre if they use both Flare and the Malamar or else a Day in the Limelight for past characters long gone as Fanservice for the older fans.^note With the added side-benefit of justifying why Ash's older friends aren't there in his hour of triumph/Ash and JJ&M aren't part of the climactic Battle of Silph Co..

edited 30th Aug '15 12:50:38 PM by DonaldthePotholer

Outside of BW, Ash has never really been regressed in skill. He was always portrayed as more competent in Hoenn than he was in the original seasons for example. DP arguably showed him as the strongest he's ever been, and XY seems to be following that.

They're always going to have Pikachu lose to new weaker pokemon or trainers in the new regions, because that's just the way the show is. They can't have Pikachu overpower everything and its for kids anyway so its understandable.

Pikachu can go from tying with a Latios and beating a Regice to losing to a young weak and wild pokemon at the start of the next region, but that's just how it is.