During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I have to raise this question since I don't think it's being addressed with Eddy's nameless brother, what about him makes him completely irredeamable? Because that standard is "Not even Redemption Equals Death is a possiblity" and while what he does is pretty fucking henious is being a massive Bully (whilst still being less extreme than other bullies) so horrible that not even a lifetime of repenting and doing good deeds can make up for it?
Also when I was searching through the records to find where the vote on him was (and apparantly failed miserably) I found another thread where someone raised the objection to him that the level of violence he used was on par with what was used in the show, just played seriously. Could someone whose watched the show confirm or deny this?
As far as I'm concerned: not displaying a redeeming quality or any indication they will change their ways at the very end of their appearances and being devoid of altruistic qualities or regret qualifies it for me.
'irredeemable' is a very tough term to qualify as technically, without a strictly metaphysical concept, anyone could technically redeem. I mean, Ramsay Bolton could, theoretically stop killing people and give money to orphans whenever he wanted.
If Eddy's brother shows no redeeming qualities and gives no indication he would voluntarily change his ways, I don't really think that's the proper subject. I think "is he heinous enough" is what it turns on.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The only problem with Ramsay stopping and giving money to orphans is that, dude did a lot of fucked up things. Onscreen too. Eddy's Brother (I'm just going to call him Bobb E from now on) did some fucked up things, but is still just a bully.
He's screen time has been described as limited to ten minutes, he gets very little charactersation, and yeah, despite being the worst guy in the work he's someone who ultimately just beats people up on a page where he's the least henious guy there. I know you keep saying "we've never compared people to other works before" but no, we really have done that to gaige if someone has hit that baseline standard. Everyone else on the Cartoon Network at a bare minimum is a murderer or makes excessive use of Cold-Blooded Torture. The ghost bullies from The Sandman are closer to Complete Monster status than Bobb E.
edited 3rd Aug '13 1:24:39 AM by Shaoken
@15060 I first brought Shido up at post 14068, and then again at 14992. Here's the fic he's from:
I agree with Shaoken that it feels extremely wrong to on one hand disclude omnicidal maniacs who have slaughtered trillions, which could never ever remotely be countered, and on the other add mere jerkasses, who are less severe than a large part of real world bullies, and could easily redeem themselves through equivalent good acts.
edited 3rd Aug '13 3:06:12 AM by CodenameBravo
Avatar by Leafsnake
Upon review of The Jeff argument and Eddies Brother, I'm going to vote cut for both.
That makes at least 7 against then.
Would anyone mind if I made a tentative start on that Sandbox.Complete Monster Debates Tracker for listing the current debates in this thread? I think it'll certainly help keep the clean-up effort better organized.
@ Largo and Ambar: Great, thanks for the info.
@ nrjxll: Not sure if an entirely new voting round for Commodus is needed. Through the several rounds of debate many contributors have already cast votes one way or the other, with Commodus currently with a running lead that is unlikely to be overturned. If anyone wants to change their last standing votes or someone wants to add one they should certainly be allowed to do so, of course.
Voting on Commodus as of the last count:
Yay (14)
ACW, Lightysnake, Morgenthaler, Crowley (tentative yes), Camberf, A New Man, nrjxll, Star Sword, Codename Bravo, Clato Lawa, Some New Guy, Hodor (tentative yes), Largo Quaqmire, Very Melon
Nay (4)
Ambar Sonof Deshar, Shaoken, Septimus Heap, Xie323
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Go for it. My plan was a link back to the FAQ/Never again list, a folder for the current debate and running tally and a link to the start of the discussion, and when it's concluded move it to another folder for either keeps, cuts or decide laters.
You can add me to the Nays for Commodus. Likewise, no to Jeffrey(if needed) and gotta say no to Eddies Brother. A bully alone just isn't enough.
No, the other one.
Add me to the yays for Commodus.
Check out my fanfiction!
For Eddy's brother, is a domestic abuser enough?
No, the other one.
Not on its own.
Check out my fanfiction!
What is the tally for Jeff?
Alright, I've made a start on Sandbox.Complete Monster Debates Tracker. I've covered about the last 5-10 pages, but likely missed some. Please contribute.
I just came across the YMMV page for an obscure thriller of the You Wake Up in a Room kind, Nine Dead. The entire film takes place with nine people in a room figuring out why their captor put them there as he kills one every 10 minutes, with some minor flashbacks. Reading the examples I get the impression the contributors who added them really don't understand what this trope is.
This natter-wreck is on the page (spoilers removed), mentioning three characters, Coogan, Kelly, and Sully:
- Complete Monster: Coogan. He's a pedophile, a rapist and a murderer and looks downright excited when one of his cellmates is shot. Nice guy.
- How many people did he rape after finding out he has AIDS? How many people did we willingly infect? Yeah, he's the best, isn't he?
- Kelly starts moving into this territory bit by bit towards the end of the movie, doing whatever is necessary to surivive.
- A BIT!? She CHARGES towards this territory considering that she knowingly framed an innocent man and sent him to prison for a crime he never committed to further her career. Not only that, but she then murders Jackson and Eddie, the two other survivors who are almost completely innocent, to cover up her crime. Complete Monster indeed.
- Sully has a few moments of this what with FIREBOMBING someone's house and killing several people. His standards may redeem him though. YMMV.
- Not that it makes up for all the rest of the crap he's done, but Sully DID express regret and remorse over the firebombing deaths, and basically says he hadn't intended for them to die, seeing as he didn't know they were there
They all disqualify for various reasons, mainly Offscreen Villainy.
- Coogan is most likely the worst, but his crimes are all ofscreen and we can't work with hypotheticals (the "how many people did he infect with Aids?" comment; there's only proof of one). The only onscreen crime through flashback is the suggested rape of an adult man in prison (the captor's son). Nothing to really put him leagues above the two other people who murder multiple people onscreen out of revenge (the captor) or selfishness (Kelly), or the two career criminals in the room.
- Kelly has redeeming qualities. Past love affair with another captive, a daughter to care for (albeit whom she mostly ignores apparently), and is frantically crying as she crosses the MEH by shooting the two last survivors.
- Sully, no. Legitimate remorse over your crimes automatically disqualifies you from Complete Monsterdom. The firebombing also takes place entirely offscreen, and he didn't intend to kill all those people, nor did he like it when he found out.
Bad, bad examples. Bad indentation, argumentative, and all likely disqualifiers. Even the captor is an Anti-Villain out to get revenge for his dead son and wants to turn himself in at the end. I say cut all of them.
edited 3rd Aug '13 7:00:30 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Just a correction suggestion, but the villain's full name from Broken Dreams is Koichi Shido. Also, since there's no work page for that fic, I might suggest linking instead to the actual fic itself:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9159225/1/Broken-Dreams
Furthermore, the real first post was #14068, which most people missed but says everything you need to know about him:
Unrelated, yes, cut Hexxus. The rules do state that someone Made of Evil cannot qualify. Speaking of which, do the same for Barney and Baby Bop and Michael Myers.
For other reasons, I might propose a cut for Calypso, if the love he's shown for his daughter in Twisted Metal 2 and Head On count (which they most likely should). Luca Blight as well, if his sympathetic backstory and love for his sister hold water.
edited 3rd Aug '13 8:05:11 AM by SeaRover
Michael Myers is Made of Evil? How so?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Well, he did appear on the page, at least. Here's what his entry there has said:
- Halloween's Dr Loomis believes Michael Myers is this. It would explain his ability to come back from each increasingly over-the-top death.
No reason, no conscience, no understand, no sense of life/death, good/evil, right/wrong. In short, no moral agency, which is the bigger criteria in question. He cannot make moral decisions. Someone like Shido or Jeff is capable of doing the right thing; Myers isn't.
Lizzid people!
The reason Eddy's Brother didn't redeem himself at the end was because it was the show's Grand Finale.
The violence he displays is not on par with the show, I'd say, because average E En E humor is dropping a house on someone - things so cartoonish that, while obviously violent, are basically snap-backs with no lingering consequences. Eddy's Brother inflicts violence on Eddy that looks, sounds, and feels like he's about to be murdered.
Also, if we're going to compare him to other works, I feel like that's really not fair, given that we just had a whole conversation where I was told explicitly NOT to do that.
Nothing suggests in the first film Michael Myers lacks a choice. We've discussed him previously, and he's a keep. Being 'simply evil' is not the same as Made of Evil. Myers is obviously quite sentient and capable of judgment on the first film.
Secondly, no. Luca Blight stays right on this list. His issues with his sister aren't 'love,' it's a psychological problem with hr resembling their mother. Secondly, while he has a somewhat sympathetic backstory, his crimes far outweigh it and it's never presented as an excuse. He's been voted on previously and this brings nothing new to the table.
@ Morgenthaler: sound like cuts
@ Irene: Why did you vote for a cut for Joffrey exactly?
@ Largo: Not exactly. If a character's crimes meet baseline heinousness then that's good enough. We don't need to compare murderers and tyrants across works. Just trying to kill the heroes otherwise wouldn't count. That said, I find a domestic abuser played seriously would be quite capable of counting, personally.
edited 3rd Aug '13 10:04:05 AM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Which is what Jeff was. If Carter and Penelope hadn't committed worse crimes...
Also, I hate to keep harping on it, but can some people please comment on the film examples I proposed a few pages ago and the Dance In The Vampire Bund examples on the previous page?
@ Lightysnake - I think the universe the character resides in needs to be taken into account, too. A domestic abuser wouldn't count in The Sopranos, and I wouldn't try to push that. Ed, Edd n Eddy is a show that runs on Nonsensoleum, slapstick, and Made of Iron; having someone who can disrupt the laws of that universe to nearly murder a twelve-year-old - and explicitly states he's done this numerous times, and is heavily implied to have done it to Rolf as well - makes them a CM in my eyes.
Also, can I get a link to those Dance In The Vampire Bund examples?
edited 3rd Aug '13 10:45:46 AM by LargoQuagmire
It's also important to point out that Ed Edd n Eddy is in no way lighthearted; the show is a Sadist Show. Like, I get that people don't want to include people who are just the worst of any given kid's show, but that's really not the case here. That's why it's the only non-Adult Swim villain in that Cartoon Network page (or used to be, anyways).
EDIT: Because there are pages of other things between the Eddy's brother votes, our old vote count on Eddy's Brother:
Our new vote:
Currently at: 6 cut, 6 keep, 1 neutral, 2 standing by the old ranking.
I will say that I feel like part of the old convo on Eddy's brother went missing. I specifically remember Ambar posting about it and can't find his post anywhere, and I know I voted yes for him and can't find my vote either.
edited 2nd Aug '13 11:36:53 PM by LargoQuagmire