Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Speaking of supernatural could you replace the first line of Dick Roman's section with this:

• The leader of the Leviathans, know by his host's name "Dick Roman", qualifies for this.

Feel free to submit that change

@Hodor: I definitely wasn't proposing we add Regina. That's why I said HateDumb see her as an example. Though you made valid points on why she's not.

With the Laughably Evil thing: again, a Complete Monster can totally be Laughably Evil. There's a difference between that (where the evil villain makes the audience laugh due to a quirky personality) and being Played for Laughs (in which the villains actions are done in a way that Crosses the Line Twice and is meant to be funny, to the extent where they're not even played as heinous In-Universe.) Example: Kefka is a Complete Monster, Peter Griffin is not.

And I think Rumpelstiltskin is more comparable to The Joker, but he's totally not a Complete Monster either.

edited 2nd May '13 1:54:16 PM by AnewMan

God, I've been complacent...okay, we've nearly wrapped up a lot.

Anime and Manga, Live Action TV and Film are next.

Irrose, go ahead and cut those Arcanum examples.

Belok Rhal I'm unsure of...but when we figure him out, let's add the Star Wars page. The comics pages are looking good and we can add anything in there later. I'll go through DC because I think we're solid for Marvel and the main comics page for right now

Marvel: Still need Carnage, Dormammu and the 2 Punisher examples. Main comics page: I may still add Kincaid and what about that scientist for Hack Slash? And DC, did we ever figure out Green Lantern?

Live-action TV...that'll take a long time.

At the risk of sounding like a Single-Issue Wonk, once more with Schlock Mercenary.

Initially brought up the issue here, quoting the entry and stating that I didn't think either one qualified due to being well intentioned extremists.

Here Occasional Exister agreed on cutting both.

nrjxll mentioned here, after I bumped the issue for further comment, that he was positive Xinchub didn't count, but was less certain about Max. My reply to him/her gives a rundown of Max's bad actions, though admittedly I haven't re-read the Haven Hive story arc so I may be misremembering things a bit.

So... any further input?

Some Yugioh GX examples not on the Monster/Yugioh page:

DD. He breaks into Edo's house, murders his father, steals a powerful card, and then adopts Edo to cover his tracks, while becoming Duel King for ten years. Then he sets a stadium on fire while dueling, killing his opponent. Though it's implied that he has a Split Personality created by the Light of Destruction while a Jerk Ass prior, he became a good father to Edo for a while.

Tragoedia in the manga. He's put dozens, if not hundreds, of people into a Fate Worse than Death, and enjoys manipulating people For the Evulz.

Tragoedia looks like a keeper but DD looks to me like a cut. Also we need to get to working on adjusting the Anime And Manga pages based on what was decided for each series. I know FMA, Inuyasha, Yugioh, Flame of Recca, and I think Yu Yu Hakusho were already discussed, so maybe we could contact a moderator to make those changes if the pages are locked.

Here are some examples from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.

Mad Scientist Precia Testarossa from the Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha TV series. Her very first scene involves a horrific example of child abuse towards her Dark Magical Girl daughter Fate, or better said, the girl who is a clone of her true daughter, Alicia, whose death sapped away the sanity she once had. It should be mentioned that Fate didn't actually do anything wrong. She did exactly what her mother wanted and Precia still whipped her. She only gets worse from there. In fact, a decent part of the fandom hopes that she survived her fall just so that the heroes can kill her in a suitably epic manner. Oh, and by the way, the spoilered Freudian Excuse was revealed by having her crush what little self-worth her 9-year old daughter had and laughing at her despair. That's right, instead of using the Freudian Excuse to make her sympathetic, the writers used it as a way to get the viewers to hate her more. And quite fitting, as it showcased how a woman who was kind at some point completely fell into madness and evil to a point beyond return. Although she is much more sympathetic in the movie, which depicts her Start of Darkness in detail and gives her an Alas, Poor Villain moment. She's more of a Jerkass Woobie in that continuity. YMMV, though. Think that's bad? In The Abridged Series by Raiki The Storm, it somehow managed to make her worse! Here's a little bit of dialogue between her and Fate: Fate: Mother, why would you do this to me? Precia: Because you are a worthless piece of shit who could only give me four jewel seeds. Fate: But mother, you only gave me two and a half episodes. Precia: Fate, did you just talk back against me? (prepares the whip) Fate: Oh F***! (gets whipped again) Or, in the original series, Precia reconsidered if she should've treated Fate like a real daughter. However, in the Abridged Series, it doesn't show her reconsidering. In fact, she calls her a failure before she died.

I'd actually consider this null and void due to the aforementioned Freudian Excuse and Jerkass Woobie status.

There is also Quattro from Strikers, who is such a cruel Smug Snake — much worse than the actual main villain of the season — that you cannot help but hate the guts out of her and stand up and cheer when she finally gets the living crap blasted out of her in a Crowning Moment of Awesome by Nanoha herself. At least Precia was blatantly insane; Quattro is very much sane, she just enjoys hurting others. What would Quattro do with a helpless, terrified, and in very much pain 6-year old girl who's crying for her mother? Torture her and tell her that said mother is an idiot!

Then there's Jail Scaglietti, Quattro's boss and a Mad Scientist far surpassing Precia, who doesn't make any pretenses to having a motive and proved himself to be utterly, disgustingly evil even before he used a six-year-old to power an Artifact of Doom and forced her to attack one of her two mommies, while he gave a brutal Hannibal Lecture to the other. And just like Precia, his Pet the Dog moments were surbverted in the end. He had 'em with his own custom-made daughters/minions, the Numbers...whom he'd impregnated with clones of himself as a potential escape route for when things went south. Eeeeeep.

These entries, whether we keep them or not, need to seriously be rewritten by someone with knowledge of the series.

edited 2nd May '13 6:25:08 PM by Klavice

DD I'd actually lean to keep. He's effectively the reason for everything bad in the second season, given that he got infected by the Light of Ruin and then infected the season's Big Bad himself. I may be remembering wrong, but I think he was a murderer even before he was possessed, too; he killed Aster's father for the "invincible card" he designed, which was cursed and that's how he got possessed.

Though, still with Precia, her Freudian Excuse to me fell flat. To me, I saw her attempts to resurrect her daughter as selfish, since from what I remembered her gathering the Jewel Seeds caused a disturbance in a dimension which quite possibly would've killed many people, and she did not care just as long as she got her daughter back. In the anime, it never portrayed this as sad, pretty much they seemed to put it there to make us hate her more. I'm talking about the television series, however, and not the film, because it's probably a different continuity. So, overall, they never portrayed her wish of bringing her daughter back to life as positive and because of this I find her Freudian Excuse flat. What are your opinions?

@Nohbody: I agree now Max does not count either.

If he was infected by the Light of Ruin, doesn't that mitigate at least some of his more heinous actions?

edited 2nd May '13 9:20:14 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

@njrxll: Ok.

Unless anyone objects, tomorrow I'll be zapping those CM entries on Schlock Mercenary.

To everyone else, in short: speak now or forever hold your peace.

Was just going over the film subpage. Good god we've missed some bad ones. Any objections to me just having this axed:

• Word Of God states that Godzilla himself in Godzilla Mothra King Ghidorah Giant Monsters All Out Attack was intended to be this. Nobody really thinks of him as being one, though, probably because of the fact that he's Godzilla.

Nothing Godzilla in that film does stacks with what Ghidorah or Gigan get up to in the other films. Not to mention that word of god is not something we usually care about.

Also, did we not agree to cut most of the examples from 88 MM, quite a few pages back? Because it does not appear to have happened.

And then there's this brilliance:

• Ivan Korshunov from Air Force One is a cruel, heartless terrorist, who remorselessly murders innocent hostages(including one woman begging for her life) in order to force President James Marshall to comply with his demands of releasing a genocidal general from prison.

Ivan has Undying Loyalty to the general going for him, has a Pet the Dog scene where he talks about how much he loves his daughter, and doesn't do anything heinous enough to qualify for this trope. And we have no idea if the general is genocidal, so that's an exaggeration at best.

edited 2nd May '13 9:22:49 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Yeah, that's the sticking point there. Basically, GX season 2 has two parallel stories, Jaden's and Aster's, of which the Big Bads are Sartorius and DD respectively. We follow Jaden's most closely, since he's the protagonist and the threat he's facing is greater, namely, stopping Sartorius from firing a Kill Sat that'll brainwash the entire planet to serve the Light of Ruin. Aster, being an Anti-Hero, is simply out for revenge against DD to get justice for his father and doesn't concern himself with the world-saving, but DD can be weirdly seen as the Bigger Bad despite being the lesser threat since he turned Sartorius evil in the first place. And of course, the Light of Ruin, which is a Multiversal Conqueror and enemy to all Duel Spirits, is wirepuller to them both.

IIRC consensus was unanimous to cut Pool and Christian, Machine was in favor of keep, and Velvet and Longsdale were dead even.

edited 2nd May '13 9:23:42 PM by HamburgerTime

And two more Zero Context Examples.

•The eponymous Villain Protagonist of Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer and his partner Otis. •Mark Collins in Twisted is definitely an evil and psychotic teenager. His hobbies are torturing small animals and bumping on babysitters.

Anybody care to elaborate?

And did we not just vote to axe some of the examples from The Condemned? Because they have not been axed.

edited 2nd May '13 9:25:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

@Nohbody: Yeah, I do believe that Max is monstrous, but not reaching for Complete Monster.

Also, you did misremember some bits

>(we see one big pile of nannie-rotted corpses, but it's not pinned specifically to Max IIRC)
Is is pinned on Max. He was sabotaging the attempts to make nanites produceable through normal mechanical means, without needs for "kidnap random guys and use them as hosts".

>Offscreen Villainy, shown only through the up-dramatized flashback.
I read that as her only flowering up his wording, pretty sure the threat actually was there in full force.

> Killing two Sanctum Adroit personnel when he found out they survived an attack from the Toughs that left pretty much every other SA goon loaned to Max dead, to prevent the surviving goons from revealing anything.
Not SA goons, his goons (only their armour was on loan from SA).

edited 2nd May '13 9:28:37 PM by Adannor

More bad film:

• Slater from Thr3e has traits of this, though in a surprise twist, Slater turns out to be a split personality of the main hero and so does his girlfriend. The real killer was tracking the hero simply because he hated copycats and was bombing people for shits and giggles, while the "fights" he got into with the kid he believed to become the serial killer were really fights with himself and physical and mental acts of 'locking away the evil' coinciding with one another. This could be described as Fight Club on a smaller scale. The true Complete Monster gets away with it all in the end and it isn't the serial killer either. It's his controlling and horribly abusive aunt, who drenched him in cold water regularly and beat him with hoses whenever he tried to interact with the outside world. She sees the outer world as a sin-filled bastion of immorality and forbids her son, her husband and him from ever leaving their rural six-room home and his cousin and uncle eventually develop Stockholm Syndrome and view her as their protector and only refer to her as Princess. Possible Lampshade Hanging by the officer in charge of the case as she laments nothing will happen to the evil aunt despite all that's happened. Exactly what the audience is wondering as she says it.

At the very least everything about Slater has to go.

Adannor, I have said that my memory could give pointers to black holes about how to suck, in the past.

Anyway, I take it you don't object to cutting Xinchub?

Henry from Henry Portrait Of A Serial Killer...oh yes. He kills plenty innocent people and cheerfully instructs his partner Otis on how to get away with it, before they kill an entire family, including a child on film. Henry later kills Otis when Otis tries to rape his sister Becky (His meaning Otis's). Henry murders Becky later anyways

Yeah, definite keep there.

I wondered, any thoughts on the Death Note examples:

• Complete Monster:
  • Higuchi. Rem actually comes to prefer Light over him when he expresses his obsession for Misa, hoping to make her, 12 1/2 years his junior, his bride. And, among all the characters who come into possession of the Death Note, he's the only one who has no motive or attempt at justification whatsoever; he's just BAD. He continues killing criminals when Rem tells him he doesn't need to anymore because it's good for business. And as Light notes, he kills criminals regardless of their circumstances. He's also the only Death Note user whose death has no aspect of Alas, Poor Villain whatsoever.
  • According to Word of God, mafia leader Rod Ross is "the evilest character in the series."
  • Matoba in L Change The World.
  • Takuo Shibuimaru (from the 1st Death Note Live-action movie) brags in graphic detail and with extreme glee, how he murdered some poor kid and got away with it. No-one pities him even in the slightest, when Light makes him his second target to test his death note on.

Let's see:

• Higuchi seems like a decent keep since outside of his general nastiness, he does the same kind of thing as Light, but without Light's (nominal) good motives.
• Supposed Word of God aside, that Robb Ross one should go- he's a bit character (I don't even know who he is) and easily pales compared to Light himself.
• Matoba is zero context, so not sure about him (but again, I tend to think that Light is so heinous that it is hard for anyone to equal or surpass him).
• Takuo- while the act bragged about is heinous, it is only bragged about, not shown onscreen- clear case of Offscreen Villainy- cut.

I know we discussed Death Note before, but I don't remember specifics of what was decided (or even who was discussed) and I don't have time to chase them down at the moment.

Everybody but Higuchi has to go. He and Light set the heinous standard between them.

I cut the Arcanum examples from the YMMV page and posted on the locked page edit thread to remove Stout from the Video Game CM page.

Okay, I just noticed a scene that may disqualify Beast Wars era Megatron from Complete Monster status.

During the final battle of the first episode of season two, Megatron sees a badly injured Infernal thrown out of the Maximal base and calls out Infernal's name in what sounds like genuine worry. Then, when Rhinox tries to shoot Infernal, Megatron rushes over to Infernal and throws him to safety. A move that almost gets Megatron himself shot. And to add to that, Megatron instantly orders a retreat. Why? I mean, sure Rhinoxhas joined the fight, but the Preds can still maintain the advantage. The only explanation I can think of, is that he saw Infernal was wounded, and wanted to immediately get him to safety.

Also, despite being constantly annoyed by Infernal calling him "My Queen". he never tries to attack him for it. All in all, Megatron seems to have something of a soft spot for Infernal.

And besides, I don't think I've ever really seen him do anything onscreen that would qualify as "heinous".