During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Thorkel and Brakan
The Unknown Unknown
Thorkel and Brakan
edited 25th May '17 3:45:33 PM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
to The Black Demon, Dr. Alexander Thorkel and Bragan.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Prince Bragan and Dr. Alexander Thorkel.
@84598: In a similar vein, why does comic Zander Rice's writeup end with giving his Freudian Excuse of Wolverine having killed his dad? We've apparently decided that it set him on his path but that he doesn't actually care about his father anymore, or something, but capping off the entry with it seems counterproductive. At the very least I feel it could be clarified to show that he's now purely driven by Fantastic Racism, or a power trip, or whatever it is.
edited 25th May '17 3:57:42 PM by YamiVizziniX
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Just a quick question. Does this quote count as You Monster! or a quote for the CM trope? I want to add it but I'm not sure.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Definitely doesn't delve into enough of why Embryo is horrible enough for the quotes page.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Probably a good idea. Lighty or anyone else got a way to reword that?
I requested the cutting of Julio's last sentence and changing the WIE pothole for Embryo to NSWIE.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Already changed the pothole but haven't cut the last line from Julio's.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I took care of that.
Lizzid people!
OK, seems as though Thorkel received enough votes. Here's a rough draft:
- Dr. Cyclops: Dr. Alexander Thorkel is a biologist seeking to perfect size reduction. Upon discovering an abandoned gold mine rich with pitchblende, Thorkel began to conduct his research. When Dr. Mendoza — Thorkel's former student and lab assistant — threatened to shut down his research, Thorkel exposes him to a lethal amount of radiation. With his eyesight worsening, Thorkel invites three scientists to his Peruvian home; angered by their continual intrusion in his plans, Thorkel traps the group in a radiation chamber, and shrinks them. When he realizes that the shrinking process was temporary, he kills Dr. Bullfinch before going to hunt for the others. Chasing the group into the jungle, Thorkel shoots Pedro, and sets the grass ablaze in an attempt to kill the three survivors in one fell swoop.
Thoughts?
edited 25th May '17 5:28:11 PM by AustinDR
It looks pretty good, but I would emphasise a little more how painful the deaths actually are. I mean he doesn't just give Dr. Mendoza radiation poisoning, he forces him head first into a ray so powerful that his skin fries and his skull starts to glow.
He doesn't just shoot Pedro, he blasts him with a full gage of a shotgun whilst he's only six inches tall.
Perhaps also mention how he initially treats the like lab rats before realising they will grow back.
edited 25th May '17 5:35:12 PM by MGD107
Lizzid people!
Alright, I'll take that into consideration.
- Dr. Alexander Thorkel is a biologist seeking to perfect size reduction. Upon discovering an abandoned gold mine rich with pitchblende, Thorkel began to conduct his research. When Dr. Mendoza — Thorkel's former student and lab assistant — threatened to shut down his research, Thorkel exposes him to a lethal amount of radiation, causing his skin to ignite as well as his skull to glow. With his eyesight worsening, Thorkel invites three scientists to his Peruvian home; angered by their continual intrusion in his plans, Thorkel traps the group in a radiation chamber, and shrinks them. Seeing his victims as nothing more than lab rats, Thorkel kills Dr. Bullfinch upon realizing that the shrinking process was temporary. Chasing the group into the jungle, Thorkel blasts Pedro with the full gage of his shotgun, and sets the grass ablaze in an attempt to kill the three survivors in one fell swoop.
Better?
edited 25th May '17 5:47:41 PM by AustinDR
Okay, a bit off-topic, but: when did this thing with Doflamingo shedding his disqualifying factors and leaving his men to die happen? I don't even watch One Piece, but I'd seen the guy brought up here so many times that I'd gotten sick of hearing about him. So I'm a bit weirded out to find that he actually did qualify in the end, apparently without my ever noticing it.
to the Black Demon (you have to imagine that anybody who willingly calls themselves that is aspiring to this trope), Dr. Alexander Thorkel, and Prince Bragan.
I took a look at Comic!Zander Rice's write-up, and based on that, I did a rewrite. I've never read the comics featuring the character (I only really know him from Logan), but I gave it the old college try:
- Dr. Zander Rice is one of the lead scientists on Weapon X's X-23 project. Having lost his father to Wolverine's rampage as he escaped Weapon X, Rice holds Logan's clone, X-23, responsible, abusing and tormenting her as a twisted revenge. When X-23 is seven years old, Rice nearly kills her with radiation poisoning to trigger her healing factor, and surgically removes her claws one at a time, coats them with adamantium, then re-implants them, all without anaesthesia. He also develops a pheremone trigger to provoke a berserker rage in X-23, using it to force her to kill her martial arts instructor. Rice later abandons X-23 to be killed while on a mission, murdering the rest of the team so that he can claim they were taking fire and had to retreat. After X-23 returns alive, Rice manipulates the head of the X-23 project, who raised Rice after his father's death, into giving him control of the project, at which point Rice sends X-23 to kill the man, his wife, and their son, whom Rice knows to be his own son from an earlier affair between himself and the wife. Only X-23's hesitation spares the child's life. Now in control of the project, Rice begins development of embryos X-24 through X-50, intending to sell them to the highest bidder. He then taints the one remaining person X-23 cares about, a scientist who was her surrogate mother, with the trigger pheromone, causing X-23 to fatally attack her just as she planned to leave with X-23 and disappear after sabotaging the project. A twisted, callous mad scientist driven by spite and self-interest, Rice's actions inflicted trauma on X-23 that the young mutant would continue to suffer from for years to come.
How's that?
Toward the end of the arc.
Is Eddy's Brother really not heinous enough? I had just finished watching The Big Picture movie and i found him to be a disgusting example of a child/domestic abuser. The way he beat the shit out of his little brother, Eddy to near fatal levels was pretty disturbing with him clearly establishing a pattern of such abuse. This abuse also extents to the other kids of the Cul De Sac as we see him severely injuring Edd and that the kids were terrified of him implying he abused them in the past as well.
No, he's not. You need more than beating up a kid to qualify and implications on others aren't enough.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Saying Eddy's brother is a CM in a show where a majority of the cast tends to do horrible things to each other as forms of retribution or comedy and our three lead protagonists constantly try to hustle the cast out of their money to buy candy is really pushing it.
edited 25th May '17 9:43:14 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
I really hate to bring this up, but is there a chance for the Lich from Adventure Time to not count? Look at this dialogue...
Prismo: Well, The Lich's primary function is to cause mass death. And since he can't do that while he is trapped in my Time Room, he's stuck in a standstill, like a machine without a purpose.
So the Lich is evil incarnate and, from what we've seen, lacks a moral agency, like Aku but not played for laughs. I really hope this isn't disqualifying as he's an excellent villain but he doesn't ever show that he can make moral choices either. He was created from a weapon of mass destruction's aftermath (a nuclear bomb) and he definetly seems to be Made of Evil... I'm a little conflicted on him.
Looks great Austin. Just one thing (sorry this my fault) I misspelt Gauge.
Well it was revealed in the season six finale that the Litch is a lot older than the mushroom war, he's the modern incarnation of part of a force of extinction that dates back millennia. However he's also apparently Finn counterpart, as he himself is the reincarnation of the force of life itself. As Finn certainly has moral agency, its stands to reason the Litch does to. He's just sadistic and enjoys killing. Even Prismo's explanation for him being harmless turned out to be yet another ruse for the Litch to escape.
edited 26th May '17 3:14:03 AM by MGD107
The argument with Finn doesn't hold water though. He's the reincarnation of "all that is good", since the comet can become just about everything so long as it's a catalyst for change.
@ Lich: His origins are still ambiguous. The relationship between the comet and him are unclear; all we know for certain is that his current personality emerged when the Mushroom Bomb went off at latest. It's worth noting that being designed to kill is not inherently an agency issue-it is possible he has free will to choose not to be a destroyer, but doesn't care and decides to be a monster either. As of yet, we don't know if he can change his mind on being an Omnicidal Maniac instead of the change being forced onto him.
I suggest that unless it's confirmed otherwise that he doesn't have moral agency, we should treat him like he does and thus counts. For comparison with another CM, there's Cell. While I personally find the extent of his free will ambiguous, the consensus that he had the free will to not be a monster since the fully mechanical Android 16 decided not to kill Goku(admittedly he was made to have a kind heart) but either doesn't consider it or flat out doesn't care and likes being a monster.
I hope we learn the exact nature of the Lich, but I feel they would give him agency since if he's just a zombie Terminator it would diminish him
edited 26th May '17 3:22:36 AM by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93
One thing about the Lich that could confirm that he has moral agency would be that The Lich himself realizes that technically it's in his nature doing evil but he chooses to do it.
That makes me think: Does usually a Made of Evil villain have the realization of what he's doing or hasn't he a real concept of reality ?
edited 26th May '17 3:55:45 AM by MovieFan2000
Fair enough. I just figured for them to be true counterparts they would both have to have free will.
edited 26th May '17 4:12:47 AM by MGD107
So, we have to cut the Lich now ?
