During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I think Grima is beyond heinous enough for this trope... omnicidal intentions, rising up the Grimleal and breeding maniacs like Validar, possessing the Avatar (who's still conscious and aware of everything Grima is doing through his/her body)... again, it's just the niggling little issues of characterization. I don't think many of us are going to play the Japanese version of the game to judge Grima here, so does Grima display enough characterization as the Hierophant in the localized version?
Grima doesn't snark in Japan, but he does taunt people about destroying mankind, and mock Robin's loved ones.
The Hierophant doesn't relate to Grima's personality, he's just a body that Grima controls like a puppet. The Future Past DLC says the Hierophant is conscious and fighting Grima from the inside, however.
The only suggested background for Grima is he's a surviving Earth Dragon. This raises continuity questions, but its possible he's the son of Medeus(wiki link), the only Earth Dragon who survived with his mind/body intact.
edited 20th Feb '17 7:03:37 PM by Monsund
I've still reason to be skeptical, then... If Grima has enough characterization for this trope, it's just enough — if even. The fact we know so little about it in-universe only heightens my skepticism. Again, I can see him passing, but there are the hesitations, and they are admittedly some pretty big ones.
Want to handle an EP, Monsund? You seem to know a good deal about the character.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Perhaps, I'll wait till this discussion is over, I think.
Most of Grima's powers aren't a mystery, just in case anyone is curious. Earth and Divine Dragons resurrect when killed by most things. Earth Dragons are pretty much like Tiki, they aren't Eldritch Abominations. Grima has the iconic "halve damage" ability, which would support him being an Earth Dragon.
I also have a rewrite of Gharnef, and Manfroy's entries in progress.
Did you read all the wiki links?
edited 20th Feb '17 6:54:54 PM by Monsund
Let me just comment...
I think the Riget example counts. That is so ridiculously awful and personal that I think it breaches the boundary into this trope.
Yeah, I've read them all before. If you're too busy, give me a few days to do some research and I can probably crop up something up, but anyone else who wants the EP can take it.
Still waffling on Aage. His one standout action is so ridiculously godawful it might push him up, but I should note characters qualifying for this trope with one particular dose of brutality is exceedingly rare. Like... maybe a handful of examples at most from the 2,500+ we've approved. The only ones I can call up to memory are Le Tenia and that one character from Banshee (and even in the case of the latter, I think it's made explicit behavior like that isn't uncommon from him).
edited 20th Feb '17 6:53:57 PM by Scraggle
Also Joshua Wright from Hellblazer.
Considering things, the personal depravity may push up Aage when comparing and contrasting to similar examples. I'll bring up one... Providence from Bravely Second lacks the absolute scale when it comes to Ouroboros and the nature of his stand-out deed is a Mind Screw at best to decipher how it would compare to Ouroboros in scale. Providence counts anyways because the nature of his plot is just so horrifically and pointlessly evil it more than exceeds Ouroboros in anything he does in that department, and looking back on the conversation, it seems that's what tipped most people into voting him up instead of what I thought would get him approved or disapproved (i.e. trying to delete the save file). I think the contrast between personal depravities and wide-scale atrocities are a little interesting to dissect with this in mind.
To hell with it. I'll lean yea to Aage. Little bits like seducing a woman, getting her pregnant, and then leaving her in the dust and the little implications of what he's also planning I think give Aage just enough standing beyond just his one act to qualify him.
edited 20th Feb '17 7:01:52 PM by Scraggle
Dragons without a Manakete form usually go non sentient due to the power of their unleashed dragon body in Fire Emblem.
Its possible Grima averts this as in the Bad Future, his body is sealed while Grima himself walks around in Robin's possessed body. In the present timeline, Grima is resurrected by his Future Self in the hierophant body, who he seems to depend on. During battle, Present Grima only attacks when Future Grima in the hierophant directs him. When Future Grima falls, Present Grima dies as well.
edited 20th Feb '17 7:29:11 PM by Monsund
Okay. Third attempt at suggesting Sekto. The first time, I was told to cut down the description, but I misread it, and the second time, I got no replies.
Who Is He?: Sekto from Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath is an Egomaniac Hunter and the CEO of the Sekto Springs Bottled Water Company.
What Has He Done?: He hunted the Steefs to endangerment, proudly displays their heads as hunting trophies in his office, and paid top dollar to any bounty hunter that could bring any others that slipped from his grasp. He took control of Mongo River, kicked the Grubbs out, and would kill them if they trespassed and strung up their corpses as a warning to the other Grubbs out, even though they only used the water to go fishing. During the story, he'd call the Stranger and offer 20,000 Moolah for a Steef head, but then sent an Outlaw named D. Caste Raider after him because he didn't want to pay 20,000 for it. When the Stranger arrives at Mongo Valley, Raider, under the orders of Sekto, has the city trashed and Doc hung before capturing him. After the Stranger is made into an Outlaw after being outted as a Steef, he sends Wolvargs to attack the Grubbs hoping to get him. At the end of the game, he'd casually announce to the Wolvargs that he expects them to die during the battle with the Grubbs just to save his own skin. During the climax, he promises to the Stranger that once he killed him, he'd go after the Grubbs. After defeating him, it is revealed that he was possessing the Olden Steef, who the Grubbs believed to be dead. His dying words imply that he was completely lucid while Sekto used his body to kill his own kind and drive the Grubbs out.
Heinous Standard: While most of the Oddworld Villains were Corrupt Corporate Executives, Sekto is shown to lack the Money Fetish other villains had and committed his actions out of Fantastic Racism. He is also shown to be completely serious while other villains were Laughably Evil. He has more of a presence in the plot than Molluck, the Brewmeister, and Humphry and Irwin. While evil, the Glukkons do care about their mother, Madam Margaret, and Humphry and Irwin are shown to care about each other, but Sekto has no Morality Pets, as he shows no remorse for the deaths of his underlings, or even his pet Glocktigis. He was also the only villain to actually succeed in his genocidal goal. While the Good Endings had Abe and Munch save their brothers, there are no other Steefs aside from the Stranger and the Olden Steef. Also, unlike the other Oddworld villains, he becomes a Karma Houdini.
Freudian Excuse: His hatred for the Steefs comes from a grudge between the races, as they protected the Grubbs from the Oktigi. You'd think he wanted the water because he's an aquatic being, but that doesn't stop him from selling it, which shows that he doesn't even care about the necessities of his race. He also has no reason to hunt down the Grubbs other than to spite the Steefs.
Other Mitigating Factors: While killing the Steefs and the Grubbs that trespassed on his territory were Offscreen Villainy, he still displays their corpses as trophies to let the player know that he means business.
Final Verdict: Even for Oddworld standards, Sekto is shown to be a vile being. He is so hell-bent on killing the Steefs, that he'd let civilians and underlings alike die to achieve it, as shown when he let Raider tear apart Mongo Valley. He cares about nobody but himself, and doesn't even have plausible reasons for his actions like greed. He's motivated by prejudice, to the point where he only wants to kill the Grubbs as one last act of spite.
Lord of Hell
We do take intent into heinousness, intent or not. If we didn't, the somewhat controversial Steele would have been removed a long time ago.
edited 20th Feb '17 7:38:45 PM by Awesomekid42
Steele doesn't have any competitors. Validar tried it, failed, and Grima succeeded doing the same task. Grima didn't have religious fanaticism, or following orders as an excuse, he even gave the plan to Validar in the first place.
Basically if Steele was in, say Berserk, he wouldn't qualify, but he isn't. Validar is in a setting where people do worse.
Validar has:
- Grima
- Algol
- Gharnef
- Manfroy
I can't think of a single thing Validar does thats worse then any of the above mentioned. Now if Validar was in a setting without them, yes, he could qualify.
edited 20th Feb '17 8:06:49 PM by Monsund
Lord of Hell
Grima doesn't snark in Japan, but he does taunt people about destroying mankind, and mock Robin's loved ones.
If he still does that in the Japanese version, then wouldn't that give Grima enough characterization to be a CM then? Taunting and mockery over the suffering of others would be a personality.
I checked up Algol's and Gharnef's entries. They didn't spearhead the apocalypse like Validar, far greater than what those two did,
I can't help but get the feeling that you think Validar should be removed because he's a poor quality villain, which no, isn't how it works.
edited 20th Feb '17 7:43:54 PM by Awesomekid42
See, that's what I'm still confused about. Grima's got a moment or two like that, but from what I remember, that's only about one or two lines... the scene I mentioned is about the most detailed I can remember of that part of Grima's personality. The rest of his lines I can recall are as generic as villain talk get and don't really contribute to any character except one-dimensional evil.
RE: Awesomekid 42
Never said Algol did, Grima spearheaded it.
Algol, in an alternate timeline where he left the Grimleal, singlehandedly created his own cult, and put an uncountable amount of victims into a Fate Worse than Death. It seems Algol's cult is just him, and his zombie mooks, so he's done far worse then Validar with less resources available.
Gharnef revived Medeus in Mystery of the Emblem, also using the Dragon's table, to create an apocalypse with degenerated dragons.
edited 20th Feb '17 7:45:56 PM by Monsund
Lord of Hell
I mean, we let the Bye-Bye man make the cut, and didn't all he get to show he had personality was a mocking finger wag?
That's still far less than the apocalypse. And with Validar being the leader of the Grimlear, yeah, Validar spearheaded it.
From the entry, Gharnef only does that to a continent. Validar ruins the entire world (that Awakening takes place in)
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
And Validar, as the leader of the Grimleal is directly responsible for the ritual happening in the first place.
Algol's crimes are unique
Stopping right there because not only does that not have to say about heinousness (Terrence T D'arby got cut a few months ago for failing heinous standard despite his crime being unique for Jo Jo monsters) but this only further makes me believe that your reason for wanting Validar gone as a CM is because you don't find him to be a good villain. You're really, really downplaying the bringing the apocalypse thing.
edited 20th Feb '17 7:54:26 PM by Awesomekid42
The ritual was Grima's plan and invention.
Validar only even got to attempt to do it because Grima revived him, and he still failed. So it was possible thanks to Grima, not him.
Gotoh stated the Degenerated Dragons unleashed by Gharnef would destroy the world, not just the continent.
Algol's crimes are unique and overshadow Validar destroying a village.
- Validar is known to have destroyed one village.
- Algol destroyed, and zombified so many villages, he can't even keep track anymore.
Uniqueness is part of the discussion on heinousness. Algol not only killed people, he invented a new measure by tormenting his victims beyond the grave.
When having a discussion, its good not to turn the topic into the other person.
edited 20th Feb '17 8:00:32 PM by Monsund
Reviewing the original EP, I think BBM also had the whole "tormenting people with terrifying hallucinations" thing going for him as well. Does a few sadistic lines on Grima's part really equate to a character measurable enough to be put on this trope?
RE: Scraggle
Grima gets more lines in Future Past, if you want me to get them?
edited 20th Feb '17 7:48:38 PM by Monsund
I'd very much appreciate that, actually.
RE: Scraggle
Do you want Grima's lines alone, or the whole conversations for context?
Should I folder it?
Whole conversations would be appreciated. Folder it if you wish.
Siiiiiiiiiiiip
Okay, after seeing more arguments, I'm saying yes to Validar. Not outheinoused. That said, it was still good to give more information regardless, even if the outcome isn't what you would prefer.
Remember, intent is never a disqualifier unless it's relevant to whether they have a redeeming quality or not.
...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.
I've no overall vote on Validar. I can see the merits in Monsund's arguments and the counters that came from it. Again? I've got no overwhelming opinion on him as a whole and I'm more concerned with seeing if Grima could qualify now since we've dismissed him for so long.
No one brings up Grima's backstory either way in Awakening. Particularly in Japan, though, Grima is a Card-Carrying Villain who refers to himself as Evil. He's done more then Valdiar, even before he reclaimed all his draconic powers.
He also created the Grimleal which is based around creating Fellblood fanatics like Validar.
Wiki link, again.
We also had a discussion way back, talking about heinousness.
Basically a guy who kills ten men, fails the standard compared to a guy who killed a hundred men with the same resources. Validar is the former, Grima is the latter.
edited 20th Feb '17 6:42:27 PM by Monsund