Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Hey guys I browsed tv tropes and found this on the Galavant YMMV page

• Complete Monster: Kingsley was a bully even as a teenager, and instead of accepting the responsibility of ruling his father's kingdom, decided to just Rape, Pillage, and Burn for several decades, then returning to oust Richard from the throne at Madalena's urging. He takes sadistic pleasure in forcing his brother to fight his best friend to the death, and unlike any of the other characters, including Card-Carrying Villains Madalena, Gareth, and Wormwood, has nothing at all to make him likable or sympathetic.

I doubt that we have ever discussed him in the forum, though given the presence of the show I doubt he qualifies so I took the liberty of removing him from the page if that is alright with you guys?

edited 28th Oct '16 12:49:53 AM by G-Editor

So, here's a rough draft write up for Nitro (no sure where exactly on the Marvel page he would go):

• Robert Hunter was an electrical engineer before a genetic alteration was carried out on him, giving him the ability to explode and reform himself at will. Taking the name Nitro, he became a hired thug for other super villains. A Psycho for Hire, he would often kill innocent bystanders on his missions, and, when he was hired to kidnap Dakota North, he attempted to rape her, which horrified another villain who quickly kicked him out of a moving vehicle. During Civil War, he used his newly upgraded exploding ability to cause the Stamford catastrophe, blowing up an entire suburb and killing The New Warriors and the supervillains he was allied with at the time, along with over 600 civilians, including 60 children. When Wolverine and a group of S.H.I.E.L.D. agents tried to apprehend him, he murdered all of the agents and left Wolverine severely injured, only stopping because he did not know about his healing factor and had assumed he was dead. When he was finally captured by Atlantian guards, he murdered his interrogators in a failed attempt to escape.

edited 28th Oct '16 1:30:24 AM by bobg

I quick-checked and no, guy wasn't discussed. Although since you cut him down and brought this up, is there any reason you don't think he qualifies?

Well Galavant is a comedic parody of the fantasy genre so much of the actions are Played for Laughs. Kinsley himself despite being taken more seriously fails the heinous standard. He is said to refuse the crown so he could just do what ever he want but that was all Off Screen, and the actions he performs onscreen is usurping his brother's throne and just be a dick to everyone else. He doesn't really have a lasting impact in the plot aside from Madelena killing him and taking the throne and no one mentions him afterward. So overall while a Complete Jerkass doesn't seem like a Complete Monster. That is just my opinion on what I believe.

edited 28th Oct '16 2:19:12 AM by G-Editor

So with the Never Again entries, it seems that Satan isn't Made of Evil in the bible, so that should be removed from the reason and just make it Offscreen Villainy as his reason or something like that.

The light-hearted kids show reason should definitely be removed from why nobody in MLP FIM counts (if it's staying on the 'Definitley Not a CM because personally I really don't think it should. Failing the heinous standard is an outdated reason now because of one of the Equestria Girls movies) since we have CM's in light-hearted kids shows and Knight of Cerebus exists,

Superboy Prime should definitely have more explanation meant to refute the potential mitigating factors people brought up.

What about Hot Coldman? He still falls short in heinousness compared to Volgin? Because Coldman didn't care if his actions would lead to the destruction of the planet.

"Failing the heinous standard is an outdated reason now because of one of the Equestria Girls movies"

What do you mean by that ? Are you talking about Sunset Shimmer ?

edited 28th Oct '16 7:31:51 AM by MiraiYuji

No. (Unless Sunset shimmer was the catalyst or something) The Superpowered Evil Side of Twilight tried to destroy the universe. While I doubt that particular character counts, it still reaches the heinous standard.

edited 28th Oct '16 7:39:16 AM by Awesomekid42

True that but even then, Midnight Sparkle was a basically a Woobie Destroyerof Worlds due to the amount of crap Human Twilight went through during the movie.

That's why he says the character doesn't count. He just means the show is capable of showing actions that breaches the heinous standard needed for this trope.

Yes, tragic villains or not, every villain impacts the heinous standard. As shown? From what I know, every character in My Little Pony has been frightfully generic at the absolute worst. "Trying to destroy the universe" is a little something that blows every other villain out of the water, period.

Now, theoretically, since they've gone into that territory before, it wouldn't be strange for them to do it again, and from what I know, for every bad guy they redeem there's another the show has produced that refuses to seek or doesn't get redemption. So, while I argue the chance is infinitesimal at best? The show is theoretically capable of producing a character heinous enough for the trope. It's a topic that bears no real point, though... I'd vouch for an alteration or a removal of the series on the Never Again list, but nothing more.

And by God, I hope that's not going to result in a sudden mob of bronies trying to propose another character of the ilk of that one supervillain who tried to give the heroes bad hair. Who knows? The next candidate might bombard someone's house with toilet paper. The horror.

edited 28th Oct '16 7:59:41 AM by Scraggle

I would suggest that on the never again list, list MLP Fi M as either insufficiently heinous or GDV.

bobg, please add Nitro to the Drafts. We'll probably just put him between The General and Hybrid.
Ravok: Should Cole Jensen just go to comics, or both comics and lit?

edited 28th Oct '16 8:30:09 AM by ACW

So long as the "light-hearted kids show" reason is removed, I'll accept MLP FIM staying on Never Again

And for Satan, since he's not Made of Evil in the Bible, we'll just re-write it as

Literature

• The Bible
  • Satan: Offscreen Villainy. Onscreen appearances fail heinous standard.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:53:42 AM by Awesomekid42

GDV is not a factor here. It was never agreed to be a factor. Stop using GDV as a factor where it doesn't apply.

But yes, I think unless the writers deliberately challenge us and the chances of that happening are essentially zilch, "insufficient heinousness" sounds like a pretty damn good reason.

The thing about MLP being on the "Never Again" list is that it seems to imply that no character could ever count, which is just not the case. It doesn't have the negative continuity or comedic sociopathy that makes it impossible for, say, South Park or Family Guy to have one. It's a kid's show, yes, but that is not and has never been a disqualifier in itself. If the entry was just changed to something like, "As of now, no character qualifies. This includes Chrysalis, Sombra and Tirek. Don't bring them up.", then I'd be fine with it.

edited 28th Oct '16 9:06:21 AM by Camberf

I don't think it's zitch. What's really stopping the show from getting a villain as powerful and evil as Bill Cipher who has the power to destroy reality? Gravity Falls isn't that much darker than MLP: FIM.

edited 28th Oct '16 9:10:36 AM by username2527

Ok, I'd have to disagree on that when one of the earliest episodes of Gravity Falls were about wax figures trying to decapitate an old man, and trying to murder two young children when they find out the truth.

Anyway, I guess we can change the MLP FIM reason to this.

Western Animation

• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic
  • Any character, sans Midnight Sparkle who's a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, fails the heinous standard at the moment.

Sure thing.

edited 28th Oct '16 9:29:21 AM by Awesomekid42

That works. Maybe just add "At the moment" to the beginning.

Yeah I know Gravity Falls is much darker, I was just playing devil's advocate on that one.

Playing Devil's advocate doesn't help us in discussions like these. Bill has moments like these as common occurrences as does the show itself (anyone remember "ancient sins?" Complete with a bunch of animal heads bleeding out of their goddamned faces?) while MLP has never veered into darker territory than Midnight or Tirek as far as I know. So that's a faulty comparison on numerous levels.

The updated entry for the Never Again looks good, though.

edited 28th Oct '16 9:57:31 AM by Scraggle

I Haven't seen MLP but i'll say something about your little idea. If you intend to add "at the moment" then what is "moment" supposed to mean? Examples Are Not Recent. Everyone would assume that it's the moment of reading this, or some distant moment in the past, either way it seems pretty redundant and pretty much useless. I would rather go for something more specific like "Unless it gets Cerebus Syndrome" or something. Speaking of that list I've seen the Joker being brought up recently, despite being on that list, entry for now seems pretty confusing since it suggests that ALL iterations of the Joker were discussed, and even if it's true it won't be the moment new one appears, so i'd suggest adding a list of Jokers that were already discussed, or at least those that were refused, so that we'll know WHICH jokers aren't to be brought up.

PS: What's GDV?

Generic Doomsday Villain. It refers to a villain without a believable or coherent motivation, goal, or personality... essentially Doomsday from the old Superman comics, who was essentially a living force of destruction and nothing else. Such characters by nature can't count for this trope, but people on this forum seem to have a bad tendency to just slap it onto any candidate with a flat character.

As for the "at the moment," that applies to the current for however long MLP fails to give us an example (indefinitely). If, by some miracle, the show does give us a candidate? We update the Never Again entry within two weeks of the candidate's existence to post the new information.

I'm almost certain the heinousness issues with Hot Coldman - including the "destroying the world" thing - would've been brought up in the original discussions revolving around him.

edited 28th Oct '16 10:22:44 AM by Scraggle

shrugs Just going off what I've looked up on him on the wiki and his character page.

Apparently, causing a nuclear war wasn't his intention so I guess that's why Volgin outdoes him, but Coldman wouldn't have cared if Cuba actually would retaliate and cause said nuclear war.

edited 28th Oct '16 10:37:27 AM by Awesomekid42

New candidate I wanted to suggest, from the taut little thriller Resurrection by Russell Mulcahey and Christopher Lambert of Highlander (one of many made in the wake of Se7en).

Who is Gerald Demus? What has he done?

Chicago is beset by a number of serial killings that appear to be religiously motivated. Of course, the killer is sending the cops messages about his crimes, yada yada. The thing is, he is murdering people because he wants to recreate the body of Christ in time for the resurrection on Easter. One murder for each body part (limbs, head, torso), six victims total—the bodies, missing each specific part, are left behind for the detectives to find, like a decapitated corpse in a cracker den and a buried body in a botanical garden.

Detective John Prudhomme, a transfer from Louisiana who has recently lost his young son in a traffic accident, eventually tracks him down but is too late to save the killer's last victim, who dies of blood loss in John's arms after having his leg forcefully amputated. John and his partner pursue the killer in the rain, who manages to capture his partner and dress him up in his own disguise so the cops will shoot one of their own. His partner survives, but needs to have his leg amputated. Deciding that John personally must be punished for interfering with his ritual, he sends him a message that he'll murder his wife, but not knowing what she looks like he kills his wife's best friend by mistake and leaves the corpse behind for John to find. He later steals his partner's amputated leg as well as another 'fuck you'.

The Chicago PD eventually discover that the killer is Gerald Damus, who has been posing as an FBI profiler by the name of Wingate as a consultant on the case. They capture him, but with no evidence whatsoever that links him to the crime scenes the only charge they have on him is impersonating a federal officer, so he has to be let out on bail. The cops follow him to a train station and manage to get enough proof from a neighbouring department just at that moment, but he manages to shake them off after a public shootout.

After Demus completes the body of Christ and displays it in the original crime scene, John figures out that the ritual is not yet complete with the final touch being the sacrifice of a newborn child. They find Demus at the nearest maternity ward, where bodies are lying all over the place (some apparently knocked out, others obviously killed like a nurse lying facedown in a pool of her own blood). At a final standoff on the roof of the hospital, Damus first uses the baby as a human shield before threatening to throw it off, only to attempt to kill John after he puts down his gun. After getting hold of his firearm again John finally kills him for good.

Heinous by the standards?

He's the only villain, so he sets it.

Freudian Excuse or redeeming traits?

No redeeming traits are showcased anywhere. No pet the dogs, no loved ones, nada. His religious motivations also don't really factor into this. Like John Doe, it's more a matter of broadcasting his fanatical views to the world at large. He's also incredibly smug about his crimes, repeatedly taunting the detectives that they have nothing to hold him on and John in particular about his son's death and failing to protect his partner.

They do discuss his state of mind to some extent, with a mention that Demus was once institutionalized by court mandate after he was found talking to pigeons. However, his crimes show clear premeditation with most of them planned weeks in advance, and he obviously understands right from wrong. We know this because we're told this... by the killer himself. While he's posing as an FBI agent and "consulting" with John, he explicitly compares himself to other serial killers who were found sane because they made careful preparation to conceal their crimes to avoid punishment, fully understanding that there were would be consequences to their actions. He notes that it would be a mistake to simply dismiss the killer as insane.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

edited 28th Oct '16 3:41:29 PM by Morgenthaler

Yes on Damus.