During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm... not sure Finch is heimius enough, given the new info. The baby sellers and disaster causer might be worth looking into, though.
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
They don't have nearly as much characterization as Finch though so on those grounds they cannot qualify. The baby kidnapping is particularly heinous but they are numerous isolated incidents. Finch sought to hack America so 911 could not be called and he could, essentially, masturbate to the pleas for help he would hear.
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours
On Hakumen, what happened wasn't a 'Redemption Equals Death', he's basically being reincarnated since he was completely destroyed. It wasn't his own will that did it, kind of like what happened with Kid Buu being reincarnated into Uub. And he's not Made of Evil, he's the opposite of the 'Yang' energy of the world given form and sentience. Yin in and in itself isn't evil, after all. He's shown cunning, planning, and sadism. Everything he does is purely to hurt people since he enjoys it. Look at his face when he crushes people's hope, razes entire countries and attacks Tokyo. He LOVES what he's doing. Hell he was already sentient (and more importantly JEALOUS) before even embedding himself into Shaghasta (Tora when he was human).
This being is an absolute keep to the list. Nothing meditates this.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The story heavily indicates that Hakumen is indeed Made of Evil. 'Yin energy' is nebulously described, but Ushio and Tora seems to follow the Confucian rather than Daoist take on the idea, where it's evil that balances out good rather than merely light that balances out dark. Hakumen itself seems pretty certain that it's all the evil, unpleasant byproduct of humanity's birth, it has the unique superpower of literally living off fear and hatred (hardly a sign of a morally-ambiguous energy), and the essential human goodness that it lacks and humans and youkai share is repeatedly shown to be a real, actual thing. It also has far more control over its reincarnation than Kid Buu did, explaining the process to the heroes as it reshapes itself into a human infant.
For the record, I'm using 'it' here because while the Hakumen has a mild preference for using female disguises, and reincarnates as a baby girl, the show makes a point of showing that it's a force of nature with only the tiniest of interests in petty human concerns like gender.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Sadism is not in of itself an indicator of moral agency. Hakumen's a cut.
edited 25th Jun '16 6:24:39 PM by Scraggle
Agreed. Guren is a solid keep, though. A bloodthirsty psychopath who outstrips every demon and monster save Hakumen for heinousness.
@SSM
Sadism does not indicate moral agency. Glaurung enjoys what he does, but has little agency because he was created to be that way by Melkor. Sounds like a similar deal applies here.
Building on this, the original version of Lord Nightmare is a sadistic powermonger who enjoys exercising his power over others. The finale reveals he lacks moral agency, so he's automatically disqualified (the dub version has no such problems; I'm likely going to modify the writeup to rectify that only the dub version counts).
Point is, sadism and such traits can be a minor indication of human-level personality and/or traits and that a given character enjoys being evil. However, those traits do not automatically entail an entity choosing to be what they are. Unless the narrative explicitly states otherwise, being a sadist does not equate to having complete free agency.
edited 25th Jun '16 9:06:45 PM by Scraggle
The Indomitus Rex being a good example. Just because she displays clear sadism, doesn't mean she has moral agency.
Since I've finally gotten into ExoSquad, I figured I'd propose a write-up for General Draconis, since his current entry is in desperate need of one.
Here's the current write-up:
- General Draconis. From his death camps on Venus, starving the populace, to being personally responsible for Nara's parents deaths. Genocide, betrayal, nothing is too much for him. He even betrayed Phaeton when he was relatively sane, and was about to kill Thrax, an honorable Neosapien Warrior who wouldn't kill civilians.note Draconis is so bad that even Phaeton, who is based on Hitler, doesn't seem as bad at first. Of course, Phaeton eventually surpasses Draconis' evil after going insane from Automutation Syndrome.
Here's the proposed rewrite:
- General Draconis is the Neosapien Governor in charge of Venus. Cruel even by the brutal standards Phaeton has set for their species, Draconis doesn't even have Phaeton's pretense of trying to help the Neosapien people. Everything Draconis does is for his own advancement. Draconis enacts a scorched earth campaign on Venus, creating a planet-wide famine that wipes out the majority of the civilian population, with the few survivors sent to toil in forced labor camps. Draconis's treatment of his own race is little better, even murdering two Neo Megas assigned to him as advisors because he felt their "suggestions" undermined his absolute authority. As a contingency if Venus fell out of his control, Draconis rigged a hydrogen bomb to the city of Vesta, intending to spite his enemies by murdering thousands of human civilians. Draconis assigned a noble soldier named Thrax to detonate the bomb in order to "redeem" himself for showing mercy to an ExoSquad member. Except Draconis lied about there being a timer for the bomb, and once Thrax activated it, he and Draconis's remaining Neosapien soldiers would've died in the resulting blast. Draconis's lust for power was so great, he plotted to betray Phaeton and usurp control of the Neosapien Empire for himself. He eventually seized his chance by leaving Phaeton to die in an exploding ship, only to discover it was a clone of Phaeton he killed. Selfish and ambitious, Draconis was so vile that he managed to make the character based on Hitler, more likable in comparison.
edited 25th Jun '16 10:58:29 PM by OccasionalExister
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
If we can get a concensus on whether Finch applies here's his proposed write up.
Leo Finch stands out among the other vile examples of the show not just for his meticulous planning and reasons for it, but because his depravity could have national consequences. Originally a 911 operator he got off on how traumatized those needing his help were and kept the calls going as long as possible, refusing to send help while he got off. When Finch was found out and fired he wrote a computer virus that would infect any nearby cell phone and spread to be unable to reach 911, instead he could evesdrop and use the recordings as masturbation material. A shut in Basement-Dweller, Finch seeks more than the virus and thus sets up recreations of his greatest calls where he plots numerous murders, kills his father and enjoys how anguished his mother is before killing her. As the FBI close in he tries to throw them off the scent so he can kill a young boy and his father, but the police get there first and use one of his 911 calls to placate him. Finch is overjoyed at hearing this but before he can be arrested he attempts to stab the FBI agent, forcing the police to shoot him and him crying for 911 because he had been shot.
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours
Eh... I feel even with the personality being more focused on with Finch, he isn't as heinous as black market baby kidnappers. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Finch.
Also, I still think the Quotes pages should be axed entirely. They really aren't worth the trouble we spend on them.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
OE: Much better. Please add to the Drafts page.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
I think we're making progress with the quotes.
I kind of want to upload a photo for the fallout monsters, maybe Frank horrigan or Roy Phillips? Is that good? And maybe one for dragon age.
edited 26th Jun '16 10:11:10 AM by Mediawatcher
I've decided to keep the quotes in comics section. Let's continue with Fanfic section :
, regarding Sol Seraph
EDIT: I suggest you to go ahead and post the photos on the thread then, so we can vote on which one will be on the page.
edited 26th Jun '16 10:41:45 AM by MiraiYuji
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The quotes seem all fine, except MAYBE the second two Sol Seraph ones.
P.S. My advice, even though they're out of order, is to knock off the Webcomics and Other Media quotes next. Film, Lit, TV, Video Games, and Western Animation will take longer.
edited 26th Jun '16 10:49:51 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
For Webcomics, I feel that the Damien quote can go, since it hinges on Taking You with Me; I don't know about the second Xykon quote.
ok I have no idea how to do it, dammit, nevermind
edited 26th Jun '16 11:14:53 AM by Mediawatcher
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Here's the Webcomics ones:
Lizzid people!
For Other Media, I'm somewhat turned off by the two Dahlia quotes: the first one amounts to It's All About Me, while the second quote is You Monster!.
The quote that was made in response to Iago, I don't know. It doesn't really work with me, for some reason.
edited 26th Jun '16 11:11:04 AM by AustinDR
As a note, from Outlander, Black Jack Randall officially does not count.
How do you guys upload the photos? If I send it to one of you, can you guys try and upload it?
The heinous standard for Cyber? They play up Paranoia Fuel and New Media Are Evil for all they're worth. Here are some specific examples of the villains to give an idea of the heinous standard.
The first episode had some mastermind hire...chop shoppers? Someone like that, to hack baby monitors to kidnap babies and sell them at auction. When the FBI closes in they hack some kid's XBOX account with the threat they will kill the babies unless they are left alone.
Another episode is similar to Leo Finch in that he creates mass snuff films, he causes disasters for people online to get off on.
A third is like, this world's third most wanted hacker who is some sixteen year old sociopath who does what she does for kicks.
The most wanted, Python, actually looks monstrous because his skin condition makes him look like a snake. He reacts to being tormented as a child by, among other things, flooding the drug market with cheap product so people buy from him and overdose, and uses his own mother as an Unwitting Pawn. When Interpol tries to shut him down he captures one of their agents, screams like a little kid that they leave him alone, before killing him and going on Criminal Mind Games with the FBI.
Those are the stand outs. Other lesser examples are cyber stalking, some fourteen year old girl who reacts to bullying by posting online about getting revenge using guns training with guns and the race is to stop her before she can, and someone who was crippled and in a wheelchair who hacks cars to show that he still has power. Then there was one guy who hacked banks and caused AT Ms to give out money, give customers x amount of dollars, to pay back a scam the bank was running in charging like a bull in overdraft fees making him somewhat heroic in comparison.
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours