Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I'd say it's more to his pride in the clan. Kakihara certainly doesn't care much for members of the group.

It's, ummm...a pretty twisted manga all told. Like, seriously messed up at times. Especially the fucking twins...

Okay then. Thanks for your answers.

Dark souls 3 entries that we voted [tup on]:

• Complete Monster: The Souls series is well known for it's morally ambiguous characters. Dark Souls III changes things up by introducing two of the most vile characters in the series, without redeemable qualities and the tragic origins of the other bosses in the series, and whose crimes are well-described within the Story Breadcrumbs plot:
  • Aldrich the Devourer is the only unambigiously evil Lord of Cinder, a former cleric and sadistic cannibal who "luxuriated in his victim's screams, founded the Church of the Deep with the intent to round up countless Undead so he could devour them and obtain their power, gradually deforming into something that could be considered an Eldritch Abomination before turning to his next meal: the very Gods that he once worshipped. He succeeded, subjecting Gwyndolin to an And I Must Scream state and controlling his body like a puppet, defiling Anor Londo and subjecting the captured Undead to various Body Horror inducing experiments, as from what can be seen in his Cathedral of the Deep.
  • Aldrich's right-hand man, Pontiff Sulyvahn, who's backstory reveals the embodiment of Ambition Is Evil. After discovering the Profound Flame as a common sorcerer, he sets out on a campaign for power by eliminating anyone who stood in his path, including the remains remainnder of Gywn's relatives in Anor Londo, for reasons implied to be pure jealously. He himself created the Outrider Knights, which was used to lure of prospective opponents to his rule such as the Dancer of the Boreal Valley and Vordt of the Boreal Valley, by giving them rings marking their status as Outrider Knights. These rings destroy the sanity of its wielders, and convert them into mad Body Horror beasts driven by pure rage. Sulyvahn was also responsible for imprisoning Gwyndolin, with the intent of feeding him to Aldrich and causing the former's Fate Worse than Death.

edited 28th May '16 2:35:22 PM by xie323

Xie: Please add here, and I'll tweak them tomorrow..

That first bullet is not needed, at all.

Here is a rough draft write up for Freudstein:

• The House By The Cemetery: Dr. Freudstein was an expert in the field of human cells and mitosis, who began performing experiments on living people to further his work. When he discovered a way to use body parts to regenerate blood cells and make himself immortal, he killed his wife and daughter, and went to live in the basement of his home, murdering anyone who came into his house and using their bodies for materials. 150 years after he killed his family, Freudstein still lives in the basement as a rotting, zombie like being. When a new family moves into his house, he begins targeting them, and after killing a babysitter and a neighbor, he manages to kill the husband and wife, with their son, Bob, barely escaping. A cruel, selfish man who would cross any lines to get what he wanted, Freudstein had a soul that matched his decayed appearance.

edited 28th May '16 3:05:05 PM by bobg

To the drafts pleae (along with the updated Mick entry). I'm gonna be busy tomorrow

I recently finished reading Star Trek: Federation and I found some potential quotes:

edited 28th May '16 3:19:51 PM by Camberf

to both quotes.
What do we wanna do with Mick? Keep him in films? Keep him in films but add that little bit to the TV page? Move him to Other Media?

edited 28th May '16 4:01:58 PM by ACW

Move him to other media.

Keep him in film

Why film? If anything I would suggest Live-Action TV since the Film serves only as a pilot to the show; doesn't it?

edited 28th May '16 4:14:44 PM by emperors

There have been two films with a third announced

That's Wierd I thought you guys were against a dark souls monster, I remember a guy posted that a while ago and you guys said to delete it.

But those two films are basically pilots of the show with the third as a conclusion. We have Teridax under Other Media. How's Mick any different?

I know this was just talked about, but even with how idealistic Steven universe is, it doesn't change the fact that they can have one, I doubt every gem will see reason, and especially the diamonds, heck if kindergarten indicates anything it's clear that someone went too far, I'm sure there will be someone who goes far and across the line and have no redeeming qualities. Although admittedly I haven't been paying much attention to the series. Heck the original my little pony, powerpuff girls and gravity falls had one, why can't this show?

edited 28th May '16 4:42:46 PM by Mediawatcher

I have no intentions of arguing against Steven Universe having a CM in the future (the tone doesn't disqualify it; crimes like the Kindergarten, the fusion experiments, and the Cluster are treated with all the seriousness they merit), but what's important to keep in mind is that a character can't be proposed until their arc has closed and/or the current season ends. Patience.

Yeah let's wait, I doubt yellow diamond will be around for the entire series. Also one of the creators pretty much debunked Jasper as such. Even if she doesn't count, maybe it will be someone else where they count due to resources, or in an awkward fashion another Jasper, or maybe another amethyst, that would be so traumatizing.

edited 28th May '16 5:11:17 PM by Mediawatcher

Apologies is this has been brought up before, but should Sabretooth's entry be updated, amended, or removed? He was definitely a CM pre-AXIS, but he's been a good guy for about two years now and is sincerely repentant and altruistic these days. He's definitely a case of Good Is Not Nice, but he's trying to make the world a better place and feels genuine guilt/remorse/empathy in his current incarnation.

Or is this an agency issue, since it wasn't initially his choice to become a good guy?

This gets complicated, because it's not clear how much of what happened in AXIS still holds post Secret Wars; of the three characters who were still inverted when SW hit, Iron Man has reverted from evil to good, Sabertooth has stayed good, and Havok hasn't appeared.

edited 28th May '16 6:02:45 PM by Monessi

Didn't Axis forcibly change his moral alignment? If so, he stays, same with Carnage, forcibly alignment changes don't count, Red King from Hulk had his alignment changed by force and we still count him.

Moral changes only exclude a character if it is done through free will, it takes moral agency to count as a CM and it takes moral agency to turn away from being a monster.

If Secret wars is a true reboot, then we can just say pre Secret Wars Sabertooth counts, just like the way we have Post and Pre Crisis monster entries for DC characters.

edited 28th May '16 6:08:00 PM by Overlord

I'm going to answer emperors about his question for Doom. I thought about doing an effort post on Big Bad Olivia Pierce, but I don't think it's necessary after all. In a summation of what story we get, she makes a deal with Hell because she genuinely believed they would better mankind. There's even evidence in game to back up that belief, since Hell had a form of magical resource called Argent Energy that vastly improved cybernetics and artificial intelligence. Over time, the infernal influence of Hell served as a form of The Corruption to her and she went from a Well-Intentioned Extremist who wanted to use the power of Hell to empower mankind to A God Am I lunitic that wanted to damn all of mankind so that the Lord of Hell would give her power. The game also makes it explicitly clear she was corrupted since she slowly turns into a zombie/demonic monstrosity over the course of game. Essentially, she was Too Dumb to Live to start with for trusting Hell to better mankind and she more or less loses her humanity/agency as she starts getting really evil and doesn't really count as a Complete Monster.

Axis did initially create the change, but it seems to have worn off on the other person it inverted (Tony). Tony's still (relatively) broke so it seems the events of Superior Iron Man still happened, so it doesn't seem like Secret Wars wiped out the effects of AXIS...

Post-SW, he references having been a monster in the past (as does Deadpool), but he doesn't specifically mention AXIS as the turning point.

Secret Wars kinda muddies the waters there, I guess, but the character is certainly heroic now. He may not have chosen to become good, but he's choosing to stay that way. Given that he's been a heroic force for over two years now it seems odd to have him listed as a CM without at least a note on timeframe or something.

Edit: As for whether or not Secret Wars is a true reboot? That's kinda an open question. The actual history of most characters doesn't seem to have changed much, but it omens't seem like most- except Singularity and maybe Panther?- of them remember the actual Incursions/End of the World. Most of the changes are chalked up to Molecule Man, specifically w/r/t adding Ultimate Miles to the regular universe. It's still not clear how the Maker got there, exactly.

Also, an unspecified amount of time passed "off camera," with events like Sabretooth quitting the Avengers, whatever Cyclops did that led to his own death, etc. It's all very confusing (though the stories coming out of it have had a shockingly high batting average overall).

So... is it a reboot? Doesn't *seem* to be, but it did massage continuity here or there.

edited 28th May '16 6:28:26 PM by Monessi

I'm behind on Marvel comics, because I don't bother buying comics and wait for them to come to Marvel Unlimited, which usually takes 6 months, I will ask you two questions in regards to your points:

1. Would Sabretooth have become a good person if Axis didn't happen? If the answer is no, then it is not a real moral change.

2. If there is any sort of reboot at all, which is what you suggesting there is, shouldn't we wait and see how this rebooted universe is different the previous one? Seems like if there are changes, you could argue we are in altered universe, rather then a straight continuation of the previous universe.

Anyway, with Carnage, we just stated that the pre Axis version of the character counted, we could just do that with Sabretooth.

edited 28th May '16 6:35:54 PM by Overlord

As a note. Id like to reserve discussion on Apocalypse

1. Would Sabretooth have become a good person if Axis didn't happen? If the answer is no, then it is not a real moral change.

Probably not, but there's some ambiguity as to when/if the effects of AXIS wore off; Iron Man is no longer Superior Iron Man, but Creed is still a repentant good guy trying to live up to the legacy of Wolverine.

2. Is Secret Wars a true reboot like Crisis on Infinite Earths was? If so, we can just split the characters into pre and post Secret Wars versions? If not, then what kind of reboot is it?

Kinda/sorta/not really. Basically Molecule Man remade the world as-was (with Reed Richards), but added in Ultimate Spidey and his family, and seems to have erased (almost) everyone's memories of Secret Wars and the events immediately preceding SW. Still not clear how The Maker snuck in. In terms of impact, it's much closer to One More Day than it is to CoiE, though.

I think adding a tag explaining that it's the pre-AXIS version that's a CM is an easy enough fix, I just think it's just a bit misleading to current/new readers to have him listed as a CM when he, lately, hasn't been.

edited 28th May '16 6:42:43 PM by Monessi